I have noticed when training intensely on a everyday basis I have more than my fair share of aches and pains.As an example and for discussion purposes,in walking the circle everyday,my ankles may be more stiff and sore initially than if I were to take the occasional day off for recovery.

This is a typical day for me.Stand for 15 minutes.Tai Chi for half an hour.Tien Gong.A line of Hou Tien for example 1.1 thru 1.8 for approximately fifty yards each.Then circle walking followed by cool down.I do not want to give this routine up as I feel very strong,but the minor aches are a little concerning to me.

Recovery is not a word that one see,s associated with the development of high level martial art skill to often.One reads and hears of old masters who practiced painstakinly day in and out.Is this another myth or were they training smarter.Or perhaps just the very gifted who would have been accolmplished no matter what training they did{doubtful}?Or yet another misinterpratation?

Should there be variation in the practice,to aid in the recovery process,or does one plow ahead like the masters of old were reputed to have done.Or does it make sense to train hard and mix in less demanding forms of training from time to time.

I am just getting the sense that constantly training and feeling these aches and pains may be depleting instead of increasing health and power.Modern sports training has embraced the concept of adequate recovery time and the use of "crosstraining".

Am I missing something?Or maybe I suffer from
"CLASSIC JOCK SYNDROME" i.e trying to do to much to hard.

Hey Anon,
Everyone has their own present level of fitness -- some are more fit than others, naturally (& otherwise). Everyone can overdo, but the amount of exercise before hitting this level varies among individuals. Early on -- as you begin to build stamina -- you may need more rest.
An example: when I was training in earnest to run a marathon I decided that I needed to run longer distances than I had been (6-to-12 miles being the longest run up to that time for me). After running 24 miles for the first time I wanted to visit my pillow! Later, after doing this run once a week (with shorter runs 4 days a week -- giving myself 2 rest days a week) I would shower up after the run & go out & have fun.
A late master of escrima said that a particular move (as well as others) should be practiced some everyday, & that after doing many thousands of repetitions one would become very good at it. Well, a martial-arts buddy of mine figured if he did hundreds, perhaps even thousands of the movement each day, then he'd be excellent within a short time. Four years later he's just starting to show signs of a full recovery -- he had hurt his wrist in short order.
Some MINOR aches & MINOR pains are usually associated with exercising (& such will continue if exercise is progressively made more stressful). Anything MAJOR requires lots of rest, & if it still persists, then you may want to seek medical advice (if you know a doctor you can trust). If you don't increase the stress level of your exercises, then the minor pains should eventually fade away. But, if you change exercise routines, then, because you're using your muscles differently (or emphasising different muscles), you'll most likely experience some aches & pains.
Breaking into exercise slowly is probably by far the best & safest way to exercise (even though I haven't always followed my own advice here, I still offer it). Have fun.

Anonymous,
I have a suggestion for you. You may want to try practicing the same amount of time but varying the routine on a regular basis. It doesn't sound to me like a whole body fatigue problem, rather a repetive overuse of the same joints and muscles from practicing the same movements too often.
Oftentimes, even small changes will have a big effect on recovery (walking the circle in a higher stance...)

the way I was taught, you have to train everyday and hard but preferably not the same things.
everyday, you train the same concepts but with different manner.
for example, you train the punch for speed one day, power the next and flow the third.but you can even train the power in 10 different ways.
training different ways improves your creativity and you spontaneity.
two things you will need in the chaos of a real fight.i will even advise you not to plan your training, create each day when you start training.
it goes the same way as all your practices, meditation and chi kung, do not make rules but one: train, train, train(that make 3!!!)
later',
serge

Serge,
I can see that such a way keeps one from the boredom of developing a rut. I'll give it a try (again; the last time I tried something like that -- taking advice from my Tai-Jitsu instructor -- I did in fact train more than ever before, but I would always end up forgetting to practice certain things; considering that I'm known for my forgetfulness, shouldn't there be some list/outline of tasks in lieu of actual step-by-step plans; what do you think? Tim, any advice from you in this area is also much welcome).

P.S.: Tried your "Tree" standing practice [also called "Embracing the Tree," a Shaolin standing exercise according to my Chi-Gung book ("The Wonders of Qigong: a Chinese Exercise for Fitness, Health & Longetivity" ISBN 0-935099-07-7)]; lowered my arms around the fifteen-minute mark; do you change arm position during your hour of this exercise, or did you just persevere over time until you could hold your arms up static for the full hour? I'm curious (& impressed with anyone who can hold up their arms for a full hour). I will try again when I next awake (or is such considered too much planning?).

hi mike,

if things in your training you forget, you should look if you need them...
some time we learn too much, to hungry for knowledge, but we don't need all this!

in my practice, every motion is meditation, standing, chi kung and fighting...we always do the same simple motions for each training: that's why it's so simple!

for the standing, i take 3mn to feel and check my posture and when i feel good i stop moving until the hour, minimum, is gone.
no music, telephone or girlfriend around!

if you can do that for a week, all and every practices you do in the arts will taste different.
not saying how easy it's becomming to wait for the bus!!!

Thanks Serge,
I'm going to have to "work up" to that hour (minimum), as today I lowered my arms occassinally & even raised them in different positions -- & still I only got to about 40 minutes of standing (I'm using an egg timer). I'm impressed that you can keep your arms up in a static posture for (over) an hour (I'm struggling between 10-to-20 minutes -- when freshly rested)!
I noticed that I was having a tendency to place weight on the balls of my feet & that this placed stress on my lower back (the stress being relieved when I rocked my weight back towards my heels a bit more). At the end of the standing my feet were feeling both "heavy" & like a "pin cushion." My trapezius muscles were tight from the previous night's attempt, but now they feel fine. I'll try again tomorrow.
In my older age I'm beginning to see the wisdom in training in a few simple movements -- but I'm always wondering WHICH FEW MOVEMENTS are best suited for a general, overall defense (that is, for a core of martial ability; also for fitness). I'm hoping that Sun Tai-Ji will give me most of what I'm looking for (while Xing-Yi's "Pi" will teach me to "move like a wave" -- something more than one instructor has suggested that I learn).
I'm also hoping that perhaps I'll discover what I'm looking for within the information that you give me (which so far has matched Tim's instructions as if you've come out of the same mold). I'm still trying to download "Realplayer," but I've run into a glich or two (i.e.: my computer can't seem to find the locations of msn.exe or realplay.exe). Once I get the gliches out, then I'll watch your streaming video clips. In the meantime I'm copying your printed articles for reading in the near future (for my days off work). I'm reading, so please keep writing.
When I was a kid I used to bear down with all my strength to put someone in a "headlock" or some such silly hold -- or I'd muscle my way out of such holds. Today -- many accidents later -- I'm a bit of a physical wreck & can't rely upon strength (of which I never had too much of to start with). This is why I'm searching for ways to move in a physical confrontation that doesn't require strength or optimum health (for instance I can no longer practice Karate with fast & snappy movements; if I strike fast, then I'd better hit something or else I'll re-dislocate my shoulder; also one arm is nerve damaged while the other suffers "tennis elbow" so strength-reliant moves are out of the question; my knees are shot, etc.). I'm interested in the internal arts since they seem to avoid relying on brute, upper-body strength & super-quick upper-body speed.
I look forward to your suggestions (as I look forward to Tim's). Oh, my memory is so poor that even with your brief training outline that I read at www.whitecraneinstitute.com I would have to write it down for reference or I would forget to practice some parts (assuming that I was already shown the parts). Take care now (& thanks again -- I'll work up to that hour plus).

for the standing practice, if you lower your arms,it's ok of course...and you should wait a while to get them up again.
when you unload the pressure, it' like you stop the exercice, then take some time to rest your shoulders!
to pass the next step, you just have to stay!
i know, i know...

try to keep the weight juste in the middle of the feet and do not move.

you will get new streght from that and strong tendons!

serge

Hello, I am a beginer in chinese martial arts, about 2 years of practice (so by all means take my comment in the right perspective). I also have some western boxing expirience, and little judo. I want to comment on the discusion of standing meditation. This practice is considered fundamental in a martial art style called I Chuan (every practice session comprises first of holding postures for about one hour) which I practice right now in Berkeley, CA. When I have started doing standing meditation about a year and a half ago it was at the expence of my boxing workouts. Since I was a full time student and I could not afford to do both things at the same time. What came as a surprise to me was that after a year of doing standing when i got back into to the ring, to my surprise, I have found that I improved a lot as boxer from doing standing along with some I Chuan movement and two person drills (and not practicing boxing). When I tried to analyze why, I have realized that the reason was increase in my internal awareness which led to greater control, for example before doing this practice when sliping a punch I would tense even for a moment at the end of the slip so it would take me fraction of a second to unfreeze (this is where second punch nailed me ) and continue dodging or counter. Now when I am more aware of all the tension areas in my body I learned to eliminate this startle responce, thus able to move more fluidly avoiding punches. Before doing standing I could not even feel my own body while moving fast, so I was unable to modify my movement.
There are many other benefits which came to me from doing standing consistently, being able to feel arm to leg connection, improvment in balance,
improvment in reaction time ... etc. Which directly translated into my sparring ability. This practice realy opened my eyes on what is the difference between "internal" martial arts practice and other methods and role of awareness in fighting.
From my expirience the best way to instill standing practice in your regiment is to do it consistently increasing time intervals slowly, I suggest to add twenty seconds every day (start with 1 minute the first day). It will bring you up to 60 minutes in 6 month It seems like a very conservative way to do it, but the benefit is the feeling of comfort and relaxation that you would derive from the practice (I think there is a deep wisdom in going slowly, this is a recepie for succeding with standing). So instead of feeling aversion due to straining practice actualy becomes pleasurable relaxation. And if you clime to one hour gradualy it will be more organic more lasting process mimiking our natural grows, so that effect will not be reversed even when you lessen your practice, this is in tune with concept of effortless effort. I think that patience and gentle persistence is the most important ingridient for success in standing. This is the site of my teacher:

www.fongha.com

please look at it if you would like to know more about I Chuan and our standing practice.

I am interested to find out if Tim teaches standing in his academy, and his opinion about I Chuan.

Thank You.

To Serge, Konstantin Goltsev, & Tim,
Hello all -- and THANKS for your input. YES, TIM DOES EMPHASIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF STANDING PRACTICE, but he doesn't demand a student do anything -- he's a good teacher that points the way on some important concepts & then lets you decide whether or not to go that direction. Until just now (with a few times being an exception) I usually only stood 1, 2, or 3 minutes every now & then in a posture simular to a soldier at attention (but less rigid). I didn't take Tim's advice, though at one time I "planned" to (I still have notes from years ago where I planned to stand in one posture for so many minutes and another for another period of time -- & I didn't stick to the plan because it became too elaborate, as you had pointed out earlier, Serge, & because I was lazy & did'nt want to spend so much time just standing around; I wasn't yet fully convinced -- SORRY TIM...of course by not following your advice I've only hampered my progress, not anybody elses).
As of this afternoon I've already worked up to an hour of standing, but I'm still moving my arms (but a little less now); I actually experienced long moments of being at ease & my back went much longer before signs of spasm started -- & I was able to release the spasms quickly. My body from feet to mid-back was lightly shaking during the last 5-to-10 minutes of the hour, yet even the shaking wasn't unpleasant. At the end my feet were again heavy & like pin cushions (semi-numb). I also felt as if my quadriceps had done squats, or had run a long distance.
I will endeavor to hold my arms up in the high position longer each time until I can go the whole hour without movement. Thanks guys for the recommendations & encouragement. Standing practice is now a part of my daily to-do list [if I had a list; well, I'll make a training outline of what the most important (most basic) things seem to be -- things that lead to advanced-level skills, because I've been (sporadically) taking various formal classes since the mid eighties & I'm still at or very near beginner level for lack of focus on what's important].

Serge & Tim,
I intend to stand in "Embracing the Tree" posture for one hour & then try a "San-Ti" posture for about 15-to-30 minutes left, then right respectively. Do you think that this is a good idea? My thinking is that facing left, center, & to the right pretty much covers most areas of stand-up confrontations. I'll continue to stand in "Wu-Ji" (sp?) for 2-to-10 minutes prior to Tai-Ji form practice. Any suggestions?
Also, is it important to have the arms lifted as if embracing a tree -- is there something special about this particular positioning of arms/hands? Would having my arms/hands up in an on-guard posture (as if in a fight) be just as appropriate (or even more so)?
I'm convinced to do standing practice, but I don't want to waste any part of the practice, so I'm looking for the optimum posture(s) for fighting-skill development (I'm a disabled old fart who doesn't want to waste any time or effort).
YOUR COMMENTS PLEASE!!!

great mike, that's the idea!

one of the concept of holding the tree is that you determine the way to hold you arms with the body.
but it's also how to punch, push or pull with the body!

the mesures you will determine when you hold the tree, arm at 120°, will be the way of keeping the arms lead with the body, not before, not after.that's why holding the standing post is for the martial arts.


after the hour holding, try to do any training that move your body softly...tai ji, ba gwa or just soft motions: concentrate on the sensations on your fingers and the fact that you do not overextand the harms.if you keep this when you punch...you get good power in minimum motion!

you have a great daily program, you will feel the changes!

serge

Mike,

Here's a novel idea for you- schedule a private
lesson with Tim and pay him show you the Yi Chuan postures and explain the concepts behind them.

(then you, who seem to have AMPLE time and desire to do so, can post the descriptions if you still think they are explainable).

Mike does zhang zhuang while he posts. He types with his qi.

Mike,
As beneficial as stance keeping is, there is a limit. My Yi Quan teacher said that 40 minutes of standing was very good, an hour was the maximum for beneficial returns, and that if you had time to stand longer than that, you need to go out and get a job.

Konstantin,
I wrote at length about my ideas and training methods with regards to stance keeping and Yi Quan in the book I co-authored with Dan Miller Xing Yi Nei Gong; Xing Yi Quan Internal Power Training. I believe your Yi Quan teacher and mine (Gao Liu De) have the same teacher, Han Xing Yuan.

Tim,

Is that 40 minutes of standing in one posture or
40 minutes of combined postures?

mr augier,

i like what you do(i saw you when you train the legion last summer) but standing still like this is sound studip for me.

i have to fight for real not prepare to be energize by univers

do you thing your punch power come from standing?
i think you punch come from punching the bag
you punch very hard but i think it is the bag not the standing

charlie

hi charlie,
i could not get your e-mail directly then i write to you by the discussion board: please do not discuss what i do here, this is not the space!!!

for the standing practice i think that after 40mn to one hour you should use the stored energy to move around a bit.

trying your motions, charged with chi.

yes, i think that hitting a bag is necessary too, but the grounding comes from standing: and punching with no grounding is not very usefull!

serge

Serge, did you think your CHI would help you pretend to be Charlie?

Bob #2 is not fooled.
Bob #2 might uproot you one day.
Bob #2 agrees, this is not the place.

Sum Guye,
40 minutes total, including all the postures you practice in that session.

Howdy Folks?
I'm having beau-coup computer problems & may be off the Net for several months if this PC of mine crashes.

Thanks Serge, K.G., Sum Guye, & Tim,
[As for Hop on Pop, I have no idea what you mean (I imagine it's funny to those that do; "Hop on Pop"...is that by the late Dr. Zeuss?)]. I'm glad Sum Guye asked Tim if that were 40 minutes each or 40 minutes total, 'cause I do have a job; and working on my feet after an hour of standing practice has been a bit of a butt-kicker (I'm pooped)! I think I've got the general idea now, but I'll be certain to discuss this training in a bit more depth with Tim in about a month or two. In the meantime I'll give this form of exercise a chance to work (so that perhaps my questions for Tim will be experience-based ones; I usually remember answers to such better than answers to hypothetical situations).

Serge,
Do you CONTEMPLATE about pushing, pulling, & punching DURING the static STANDING exercise; or do you wait until you are practicing those soft movements at the end to think about such motions? I hope I can keep my computer alive long enough to read your answer.

Tim,
As a favor for me, please copy Serge's answer to this line of questioning (or please recall it later), as I may have to ask you when I next see you if my PC crashes (it took nearly 24 hours to get the darn thing to boot up this time). Thanks.

Hey Readers,
I should've stuck to that 40-minute-maximum for all stances combined advice from the start. I had tried standing longer (at least an hour) & it was more detrimental than beneficial -- & then I pretty much stopped altogether (which didn't help any either). One of my buddies did the same. We each tried to watch TV while doing so (that was another of my bright ideas) -- and neither of us could enjoy the shows! Too much time standing still was both detrimental to what I wanted to accomplish & a waste of a lot of time.
So 40 minutes or less seems to be the way to go. I only wish now that before I tried this little experiment I had first read one of Tim's other postings concerning WHY it's not a good idea to stand very long (undue TENSION).
I gave up all training for about a year (for the most part -- since around 9-11; not following my earlier poor advice of train, train, train -- now it's just train) & so now I'm ready to try a different approach based upon Tim's postings & Tim's & Luo's past classes/seminar instruction. I'll post again in a few months time to mention how things are working out.
I never heard back from Serge (my PC crashed -- perhaps that's why, perhaps not).

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