Tim,

| have seen you mention more than once that the maximum amount of time a person should train in standing postures is approx 40 mins. You are the only person I've seen say this.

Could you please explain why you say this?

Thanks,

Cfp

Cfp,

Because of the law of diminishing returns. There is a minimum amount of exercise needed to produce a training effect, and a point after which the training effect rapidly declines. The principle applies to all types of physical training (including standing still).

Take cardio training for example. It is necessary to maintain a minimum level of exertion for a minumum amount of time to produce a training effect (improve your cardiovascular capabilities). Training below this minimum level of exertion and/or duration will be a waste of time as far as conditioning is concerned.

There is also an optimal maximum duration of training, the length of time that produces the bulk of the training effect. Continuing past this optimal length of time will yield very little gains in CV output.

Simply put, jogging for 30 minutes will produce 90% of the cardio benefits you can get for one training session. After 30 minutes, the benefits of training are greatly reduced.

The same rule applies to strength training (you need to overload a muscle just enough to stimulate an increase in strength. Training past that point only leads to exhaustion and loss of muscle).

The law of diminishing returns.

People with far more experience at stance keeping than me determined that after 40 minutes of standing, the law of diminishing returns makes more prolonged standing practically nonproductive.

I suspect, in general, teachers that advocate standing for hours a day have nothing else to teach.

Tim knows how to take a stand.

Tim,

As a person becomes more physically fit does it also increasen their optimal maximum duration of training?

If so, doesn't this mean some people who are fit may have to stand longer or jog further to get the same benefit?

Tim,

Thank you, you are always so obliging.

Cfp

Bruce,

Right, but the variables of training will depend on the specific goals you are trying to achieve.

I imagine as your endurance (and patience) improved, you could probably train up to the point you could stand still all day. My question is, what would be the point?

After a cultivating a certain level of physical ability, any additional small improvements (in that particular aspect) become functionally irrelevant. Once you can stand correctly for a certain amount of time (my teachers say about 40 minutes), any remaining training time is better spent practicing other skills.

Imagine a boxer training to fight in the ring. Roadwork is a very important part of his training. Now imagine he wakes up one day and says "Since roadwork is important, instead of running five miles a day, I'm going to run all day." And he has no time or energy left for bagwork or sparring. How will he do in the ring?

As far as stance keeping is concerned, once the basic postures are mastered and the optimal amount of standing time is achieved, it is better for martial skill development to practice more difficult positions rather than stand longer in easier position (you save time, time better spent on other aspects of training, and you get stronger).

I agree. Once that boxer makes that leap, he forfeits his claim to being a boxer. In a sense, the boxer has somehow transformed himself into a marathon runner instead of a fighter. Not that there's anything wrong with that. One thing is for sure, he can runner around the ring the entire fight and he won't get winded when he is getting the snot beat out of him.

So thats means I shouldn't jack off 10 times a day instead of boxing training?

"He can't fight but he sure can whack it!"

The best thing to do would be to experiment and find your own optimum time for standing.

FWIW

I heartily endorse Tim's statements, (not that he needs my endorsement)
As a Yi-quan practitioner I practice a style that is rooted in zhan zuang. if people come to our club and don't actually do the standing we basically dismiss them as martial artists. However the most religious of our club would practice about 15 minutes in the all round stance and about 5 in one legged postures.

In the internal martial arts standing is not really about endurance. At first it is because you can't relax. But, as you get better, it is a tool for unifying the body to build efficient R E L A X E D strength, you need determination but you must also be relaxed in your attitude. For instance, my teacher, Nu Yu-Ping warned that doing Zhan Zuang when angry would be counter-productive. He also stressed that if your are not comfortable, you are not correct.
Now it may be that some senior practitioners do Zhan Zuang are doing it to relax and don't feel like stopping when they feel like they have really got the feeling, but even then I have a feeling that Tim's scientific description is still valid

tim is absoltly right. 30-40 minutes is about the maximum one can stand and still get the benefits the the practice trains.

i can add another(possible) reason for this. My teacher always stated that traing stances should never exeed 30 minutes and that once one could hold the most difficult stance easily the practice can be ignored to a great extent. i asked around to different friends i have in the kenesiology and sports medicine fields, as well as biomechanichs. the explination they gave me was that when one stands still we are naturally sposed to use a different set of muscles than when we move. the two groups are called 'Global' and 'Local' muscle groups.

Global muscles are resposible for the gross motor action of the body whereas the local groups are there to provide support. Global mucles can produce great amounts of force but have a very limited endurance. Locals produce incredibly insignificant amounts of force but have absurd endurance.

When stances are kept and we try to "relax" into the posture, we are attempting to 'disengage our globals and engage our locals. After about 30 minutes even the most stalwart of global muscles will tire and, as reflex, the locals of that area will take over. if one can achive this state of 'local skeletal support' almost at will, the traing has been a success.

this is ofc, easier said than done.

Stance traing is still a wonderful training practice and can produce benefits untold.

Hi all,

I guess that the duration of the practice is a very crucial point but I 'd like to address another issue: the ability to relax. If relaxing the muscles is relatively easy after few months of practice, relaxing the mind and then focusing on a certain visualization or simply on the breath is very hard for me! Everything should be natural but it's not so easy. Following the suggestion of GM Whang Xian Zhai, I'd like to get the suggestions of older practitioners.

Thank you in advance!

I always just stand untill I start to sweat...

That way, I would know that my efforts would bear fruit.. {seeing that,.. as my endurance raised,.. then so would the "time" that it takes for the sweat to perspire...{keep "raising the bar", on the time it takes to start sweating. That way you can clearly see your stammnia raising to a higher level.

But also combine this way with the clock way...

If you can build up to the point where you can stand for 40mins without sweating, then you've reached a very high level..

Peace

WXW

Standing still training, done well and in moderation, is a useful way of meditation with all the emotional and physiological benefits that can come from regularly doing meditation of any kind.

Past a certain amount of time -- possibly different for each individual -- standing meditation becomes only a way of reinforcing standing still as a physical activity-- it won't bring spectacular martial skills by itself as that involves having to move effeciently as well as training regularly and competently with a variety of partners.

Advocates of extreme amounts of standing use the founders of I-Quan and similar methods as paragons of martial skills. However, it is important to remember that these founder fathers were, by all reports, already extremely skilfull and experienced fighters who improved the martial skills that they already possessed through regular standing meditation. They didn't get the interactive skills because of standing alone!

sometimes I stand still really fast. sometimes I stand sltill really slow.

Bob#2

Those who say that zhan zhuang is about standing still don't know anything about it - neither is it something like meditation. Obviously just practicing zhan zhuang won't teach you how to fight but it really is the foundation of the art.