Peter,
Yes, there are several systems that I have seen that include super slow exercises (especially squats).

Hi Tim,

Could Tim Furey's Royal Court exercises be done really slowly with coordinated breathing, to make it more like an internal neigong exercie ?



Kelvin

i think it's kind offunny that the question was about squats, and nobody is talking about weights at all. Resistance training makes you stronger. Being stronger makes you a more capable fighter. Endurance is very important, and being able to do a hundred bodyweight squats is admirable, but I would be much more impressed to see somone squat 2 times there own bodyweight or more. That to me impliesthe ability to do a devastating hip toss or fimeman's carry, or other simple throws. Granted they will work thru sheer body mechanics ( i have read and seen effortless combat throws ), but add a few hundred pounds of force for a little extra "oomph" and see how the results compare.
Let's face it guys! The physical requirements of martial arts practice, especially competitive fighting, whether it is kickboxing, or judo or wrestling, requires a very similar set of attributes as do many 'power' sports, like football or weightlifting. You should stop asking how old chinese guys trained a few hundred years ago, and start asking how those Olympic Weightlifters get SO DAMN STRONG while remaing so small and flexible. Most of these UFC guys do a wide ranging blend of training, from skill practice, sparring, weightlifting, calistenics and plyometrics. Because they must be proficient, but also fast and strong! Power is speed times strength. You cannot convey much power if you do not first improve strength. Read : Charles Staley, Tudor Bompa, Pavel Tatsouline, Donald Chu and Harvey Newton. These guys trained THE BEST in many related endeavors. It's time to start accepting what sport science has been showing us for 30+ years, and what intuition has been screaming for eons: lift heavy, get stronger. When you are stronger everything becomes easier. Speed, flexibility, power, endurance. They will all improve.

Jason

Your point is very good, and too many people I used to know never did enough conditioning. General training, a variety of training is great, but you also need to know which things which give you conditioning for very specific purposes. I like and do modern strength training but it doesn't help my interal arts training, traditional 'strength' exercises do. Modern methods sometimes even interfer with IMA progress.

Long ago I read of a couple guys who loved snow skiing, one time a body builder friend went with them. Leg fatigue was a big factor with these guys so knowing the incredible leg strength of the other guy, they were amazed at how quickly his legs wore out. Yes, he had very strong legs but the 'type' of strength he had developed did not carry over into skiing and did not help him at all. Another fellow prepared for a mountain trip by running and weight training, this certainly helped him a great deal but didn't train the specific muscle groups he needed to carry a pack up and down mountains.

The point, through generations of trial and error, many of the old timers figgured out which exercises helped to produce the results they wanted. Some forms of strength training helped, others actually hindered. Srength training for Chinese IMA or for Greco Roman wrestling would not be the same.

Lastly, somebody wiser than I once noted that hardcore weight lifters often presume that with great strength automatically comes fighting skill and that the two are not the same.

It's too bad that so many people always think that strength is going to interfere with their mystical arts practice. I think Ba Gua specifically, and internal arts in general, are the most sophisticated approach in the world to moving with the purpose that we all aspire to: self defense. I think it works w/ out strength, but I think it works EVEN better with strength, and the more the merrier. Anyone who thinks that a good bench press is going to make them automatically succeed at punching in some way that they have never tried is an ASS. But a martial artist who masters a certain type of forward upperbody strike, and then plateaus, and never does it any faster or with any more power or force needs STRENGTH training. If you teach that big bencher how to punch and let him practice for a while, he will deliver more power. Now, spread this concept all over the whole arena of movement,and there is so much potential for improvement. People have been throwing the discus, or sprinting for centuries, yet athletes who train with weights and plyometrics break every record previously set every 4 years. There's something to this, and burying your head is only going to get you your ass handed to you. You all realize now, that you MUST spar. Some day you'll realize that to beat another martial artist, you going to NEED strength training. Not sissy bodybuilding, but real strength and power training. Some day this too will be accepted, simply as the truth.

I have an uncontrollable urge to applaud Jason. I am only 16 and 172 lbs yet I haven't done any leg strengthing exercises at all in the past 4 months and I can squat 400 lbs. (Not really deep squats like some power lifters, mine are with my knees around 100 degrees bent and the bottom of my thighs parallel to the ground.) I've never really worked hard on squats at all. It took me around a month last year from when I first started squats until I could do 400 lbs. I think I'll become really strong if I just can keep faithful to a weight lifting program.

By the way, I think deadlifts are great for leg and lower back strength. I just started those but I usually do 240 lbs for a few sets for reps. My lower back is kinda weak due to a severe injury I had a few years ago and I sometimes have pain but the strengthening I've gotten from doing various types of deadlifts has helped a ton.

One last note, powerlifters don't usually do that much for their upper back because the 3 events, Benchpress, Squat, and Deadlift don't test that much lattisimus dorsi (upper back, used for pull ups) strength. This creates a muscle imbalance and slows your punches. Train everything is my golden rule.

Mont,

I wish I'd been on your track at your age. Sounds like you have the genetics and the mind to do a lot with yourself. The info on strength training is out there, I'd recommend you chase it down.

go check out <deepsquatter.com> and read a little about how Westside Barbell Club trains- the lats and upper back are pulled into play in all three of the core power lifts, once you start pushing real weight.

Partial squats are nice and can build some good strength within their ROM, but don't think you're a 400lb squatter just 'cos you're doing partials. Weight training and weight-lifting are the realm of the empiric, and partials are deceptive.

By way of example (and my squat's my worst lift)- at 235 my-

below parallel box squat is 300 1RM
Static hold 15 second is 765
front squat 1RM is 245
Snatch squat 6 RM is 121
back squat ATH 1RM 255

What do these numbers mean? Specific things about kinetic links and flexibilty issues. The static hold is pretty useless- a party trick, but back squats are great for quick footwork, and the snatch squats (which I started 5 mos ago) have done more for my guard than anything else I've ever done. The front squats support my clean, which does all sorts of good things for balance and base.

Anyway, rambling aside, cool to see someone getting into lifting- check the deepsquatter site, grab anything by Mel Siff, and take a look at the Russian literature- you'll be way out in front- this is a cool subject to learn.

Lastly- if you're low back is beaten up, the Westiside guys are big on reverse hyperextensions if you can find someone with a machine near you. Failing that, carefully done goodmornings of different flavors (I avoid rounded back) build excellent static strength in the low back.

Take it easy,

Andrew

P.S. Deadlifts rock!

Mont,

Keep doing the weight training if you like it. Many people may tell you it's not an advantage but most of them have never been bitten by the bug. The only thing that was able to pull me away from weight training was Martial Arts - and after 13 years of MA training I still love to throw the iron around (gym rat forever I guess). The point being, if you love weights and are just getting into MA training, you don't have to give it up. At some point you may need to choose which you want to spend more time on - for me, Martial Arts has been a life enhancing experience and I will always do it. Now married with kids, I'm just happy to get time to myself to do anything.

Take Care and keep doing what you love.

Regards,

T
(Moved to relevent thread)

Hi Everyone,

I found Matt Furey's webpage, and it is quite interesting. I was not able to find any real information on how to do the exercises (obviously he wants you to buy his books and kits). Could one of you give me a quick explanation of how the Hindu Squat exercise is done? So I can better visualize and try it out myself.

Thanks,
Richard

Don a white diaper and wrap a towel around your head--then proceed to go to your nearest gym. Find the squat rack and load the bar. Get underneath that bar, place it behind your head and neck, and go up and down and up and down . . . . ad infinitum. You should either feel pain from the number of repetitions or from the load of the weight.

Richard,

Stand with your feet about shoulder width apart with the toes pointing forward.

Keeping your head up and your back as straight as possible, squat until you heels come up and your rear touches your heels (balance on your toes). As you squat down, extend your arms with your hands moving behind your rear so your finger tips touch the ground at the completion of the squat (exhale).

As you rise, swing your arms forward so that as you come into the full upright position your arms are extended straight it front of you parallel with the ground.

Pull in with your elbows and close your hands until your fists are beside your ribs at chest height. Your elbows are close to your body (inhale).

Be sure to keep your back straight at all times.

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the description. Now I can see some of the little things I wasn't including. Definitely a good exercise.


Hi Mojo,

I have been lifting weights for a long time now, and have no desire to dress like an old Hindu ascetic while doing so.

Ahh, so thats what you call those squats I used to do at tkd class. We also did something a lot harder where you assume a parallel squat position, place your hands on your upper thigh and bounce up and down with some quad power and your calves. It really burns after a suprisingly few number of reps. After few sets of this we would do our little hop and in mid air do a front kick with both legs and land in squat position again. Really painful. But it builds a lot of explosive strength, speed and balance in the legs.

Is the arm-movement in a hindu squat done rhythmically to add upward momentum to the body as you rise? Do you conciously raise the heels on the downward, or do they rise as a reflex? Are the heels dropped during the upward?

The 'squat' is an actual method, albeit done with hands at sides and stooping using a wall as reference (Zhineng donggong). It streghtens the legs (generally) allowing for smoother up/down move transitions while building the mingmn/shenshu/qihai area.

It is a basic neigong training routine re-introduced through Zhineng qigong.

Kenneth,
I missed your question. The arm movement helps you to rise and also creates a whole body coordinated movement.

You try to keep the heels on the ground as long as possible, they rise naturally as you squat. Drop the heels on the rise.

Hi Tim,

Does doing Hindu Squats go against the principle of bending your knees beyond your toes, or is it ok when the weight is on the balls of the feet?

JB,
"Does doing Hindu Squats go against the principle of bending your knees beyond your toes"

In the martial context, I suppose it does, but as an exercise (as long as you are healthy and are careful not to overdo the reps) it's alright.

hey all,

just a small addition to the building muscle issue. i was studyiing in dalian (china) with a few anonymous teachers who accepted no money, but also no laziness, cheek or lateness. One teacher who was the champion push hands player for liaoning province (teaching southern wu style 103 form) said "first make the muscles big, then make them small". This makes a bit of sense, moving from gross to subtle matter, i see this trend in all my (albeit limited) experience with physical/energetic training. In the beginning we align the body and maximize it's capacity (years,grrr). Once that 'sheath' (in this case the musculoskeletal system) is functioning optimally it's tendency towards homeostasis will naturally allow us access to greater sources of power. He said other cryptic things like 'don't sweat', i'm assuming he was referring to the loss of wei chi that comes from diaphoresis (good for expelling exterior level pathogens, bad for qi cultivation.)
also "no hats", very hard, as dalian gets super cold. I'm not sure if it has some higher significance or if he just didn't like hat-head.

Just to add an extra observation:

You can do the squats without lifting the heels, but it's tougher on the knees. It also is slightly more tiring. I tend to do the first 20 or so with feet planted in the ground, and the remainder lifting the heels.

There is other fun stuff, which is to do jumping squats: as you come up, jump forward about a foot or slightly less, as yu go donw jump back to your original position (I have to admit I rarely do these!).

Best

José de Freitas