Tim,
When Luo was here last he showed us the 5 element Xingyi exercises. In Pao he had us sort of pop the shoulders and scapula. He has said that power is generated sequentially through the joints but did not elaborate. Could you?
Buddy

The Pao Quan exercise uses a kind of "ripple" from the hips up the back and spine that transfers forward through the shoulders and out the elbows. Even though the movement looks like it is primarily generated by pushing the scapula forward, it is really a wave-like flow from the feet up, initiated in the hips.

Hello Tim,

I wondered if you could help me with this please.

The question I have regards Fa Jin for striking and the action of rising and sinking.

When I wish to express power for a strike, I use one of three methods or timings for rising and sinking. One is to compress first and strike on the rise. Two is to sink and expand the arms simultaniously, and three is Almost like striking on the rise except at the point of impact I sink, sort of a mixture of method one and two.

My question is this. Should I use all these methods for striking or work on the one that yields the most power?(method 3) Or do I say Take the less powerful but strateigically advantages method?(2). I don't like method one so much as it is more telegraphed, but use it sometimes to preceed a second strike.

My alighnment, twistings and timing are pretty decent, however I'm trying to train for continous and flowing circular striking ability and would appriciate your thoughts on the best method to echeive this.

Thanks,

Wind Walker

Wind Walker,
It's my opinion that the more ways you can generate efficient power, the better. Most people will naturally develop the ability to generate more power with some methods than others, but, when you are fighting, you may not get the opportunity to apply your favorite techniques. The ability to issue force from all parts of the body and from less than ideal positions is a very useful skill. Sounds like you are doing well in your training.
As far as continuous flowing strikes, I would suggest working on the movements of the hips, as long as the hips are free to move, power can be generated without having to completely stop and start the motion over.

Thanks Tim,

I took your advice by the way, and have been working on not trying to change the opponents direction when "meeting". It works pretty well for entering. So thanks for that.

I was reading your effortless throws book and came across the Section on stillness in motion. I can relate to your explanation of internal balance. It was a pleasure to read.

Thanks Wind Walker.

Tim, hello again.

I must express my gratitude for your input as it has greatly enhanced my progress.

Speaking of progress, I've started training with weights, to increase strength and power and have had an interesting time doing so. I wonder if you would share some thoughts on my experiences.

I read on one of these threads that you didn't entirely disagree with weight training due to teachers asking you to weild heavy weapons as part of the curiculum. So I did some personal investigation into weight training and discovered a couple of things. One was, that after doing a number of light reps(8-10 kilos) my muscles had learnt to tighten at the end of the extention, causing a lack in the transference of force in my strikes. Observing that this learnt muscle response was relatively quick, I supplimented my training with, what I believe is called, plyometrics. A few jumps ( as variations) in my bagua forms and throwing a medicine ball against a wall and catching it (whilst loading up) and throwing it again.

I have found that this combination of training and continuing my Tai Chi forms has given me greater power (and incidently speed) without negating 'softness'.

The other is, after reading somewhere that Cheng Ting Hua used to practice with an iron vest. I have started standing practice with weights on my shoulders (to increase the strength of my stablizing muscles).This practice has has increased both power and ease of application.

I have had a problem in the past with weight training, but now feel I have found a way of doing it without blocking my force. I wondered if you have any insights and or similar training methods.


Thanks as allways, peace and connections.


Wind Walker

Wind Walker,
I train with Tim in internal and also train with weights. It's a personal perference. Tim doesn't weight train but does body weight exercises. He also trains about 8 hours a day in Marital Arts (It's his job) and most of us don't have that luxury.

What has helped me is not doing isolation movements. (I.E. bodybuilder weight training) What I do are movements that work various muscle groups at a given time. For example, I do power cleans, Squats with a calve raise at the end of the movement, Squat to overhead press, etc.

I have to mix it up (weight routines) because I often get bored with them. But, the compound exercises seem to work for me. If you ever need a change of pace, give them a try.

good training,
Joe

Wind Walker,
Plyometrics are very useful training for any activity that involves explosive power (like martial arts in general). I also assume that weighting the torso would be good for overall body power and stability, although I've never tried it.

Joe's advice is very sound, a number of the grapplers I train with advocate lifts which involve the whole body (Olympic lifts for example). And it works for Joe too, he's built like a tree trunk.

Okay,
If I shaved my back hair and devoted more time to my 'slenderize' weight training routine, I might be able to shed the tree trunk look.

Although, my look has a lot to do with genetics. If you think I'm hairy, you should see my mother...

I'll never shake the tree trunk comment. I blame my father.

(There, I feel better)

Wind Walker, sorry about the digression. It's an inside joke between me and Tim. But, as far as grappling short spandex models, check out the latest issue of Grappling Magazine. See the guy doing techniques with Cleber. Spandex has been good for him...

good training,
Joe

Tim, thanks for taking the time on all the topics you input to. I lurk on the Xingyi list on Yahoo and I've been watching on-again-off-again discussions about various drills to strengthen the dan tian, like the "squatting monkey" (don't ask me what it is) drill in Shanxi Xingyi. I get the feeling that "dan tian" is more than just a nice reference point in the middle and is apparently something you really want to strengthen. Can you provide any insights?

Will,
I'm sure you are familiar with the Chinese concept of the dan tian (actually there are three of them, here we are referring to the lower dan tian) as being a kind of 'reservoir' for 'qi.' This is probably the most common explanation for the emphasis placed on the lower dan tian in Asian martial arts. My personal take on the concept is that the lower dan tian area is given so much emphasis for several reasons:

1. It is in the center of the lower torso pelvic region. Since one end of all of the largest muscles in the body attach to the pelvis, it truly is the 'center' of the body and the place from which whole body power originates.

2. Since the lower dan tian region forms the area of connection between the upper and lower body, it is the place that directs incoming force down through the feet (the source of 'rooting') and aims the power of the lower body and center (from the strongest muscles in the body) into the extremities.

3. Breathing is integral to the ability to generate power, and the movement of the diaphragm is primary in the control of breath. Feedback on the control of respiration (especially so-called "abdominal" respiration) is primarily received from the degree of intra-abdominal pressure (pressure in the lower abdomen, or dan tian area), therefore this region forms a focus for the intent.

4. The alignment of the pelvis and its relationship to the alignment of the head forms the foundation of balance and the ability to contract the muscles harmoniously in relation to external resistance (gravity, momentum and weight).

For these (and other reasons) I belive the branch of physical culture that focuses on the lower dan tian came into being, and the cultivation of the dan tian area provided great benefits to martial artists.

Thanks, Tim. But what about the "jin" I hear so many people talking about that seems so hard to develop and which the dan tian is supposed to store up and let go? Apparently it's such a big topic that even the "squatting monkey" thing and other things are called "dan tian exercises". On one list I heard several different people talking about some sort of odd muscular development just below the stomach in some of the Chinese they have seen.

I too have an odd muscular development below my stomach... but I'm not Chinese.

I don't think they mean muscular appendage.

"Jin" (or, more properly "Jing" ), is the common term for the application of trained strength. All trained athletes have it. I often use the swimming analogy. A novice swimmer thrashes around in the water and barely moves forward. He is using "Li" (muscular strength) but without the appropriate coordination (no Jing). An expert swimmer will appear to glide through the water without using much effort. His movements also require strength, but the whole body is coordinated and the use of strength is appropriate to the task at hand (he has "swimming Jing" ). This is about as mysterious as "Jing" gets.

In my explanation of the importance of the center/dan tian above, I pointed out the vital role the center plays in coordinating the movements of the body and in generating force. In the martial arts, the application of trained strength (Jing) is centered in the dan tian area. And if you exercise this area enough, you will notice it's development.

Hi Tim,

So basically the jin of Xingyi, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, etc is not any different than the jin of well-practiced Shaolin and so on?

Hi Will,

Not to steal Tim's thunder but he has said on more than one occasion it's not the art that is external or internal but the practitioner's expression of the art and since all styles only exist through human movement and the application of specific principles of attack and defense (paraphrased), I would think that your conclusion would be correct.

Bob#2,

Are you confusing muscular developments with monthly bloating? Of course walking on nubs would create some additional abdominal development I tend to think the beer is the real cause of any protrusion. Yeah that’s probably it; you are cultivating a liquid grain storage facility. I believe that is the politically correct term for beer belly.

Hi Bob:

Well you have to make at least some distinctions. If there is no difference between (a.) the training methods (b.) the conditioning methods (c.) the strategies and applications (d)the kind of strengths developed, etc., except "the practitioners expression of the art" then all the diversity of Chinese martial arts comes to nothing. I know this may be a strange thought, but do you suppose it's possible that us guys don't know everything and that we're assuming we do? :^)

Hi Will,

I think those specific points you mentioned are distinctions in how any particular art is expressed otherwise as you said we would see no diversity in style. In my opinion these differences lead to one of three expressions, internal, external or a combination of both. It still seems to me to boil down to expression.

As far as knowing everything, well I am sure I don't. I have known Tim for a long time and he has never claimed to know everything either but he's a hell of a lot closer than I am.

You were asking about Jin or Jing as though looking for some difference like one method is developed by red chi and another developed by green chi. I know that sounds a little sarcastic but it is not meant as an attack. It just seems to me that Tim pealed back all the layers of rhetoric and mystic garbage, he pointed out the bottom line, and with this you are dissapointed. I truly believe that you will be hard pressed to find anyone that is going to give you such clear, concise, and accurate understanding and all at no charge. Then again, you don't have to agree with his conclusions, but I have a hunch if you set out to prove him wrong,keeping an honest and open mind, you will end up agreeing with him in the end. Of course that's just an opinion.

Regards
Bob Shores

The methods of developing (trained) strength and it's application are generally different in the Shaolin based styles from those of the 'Internal' styles. So no, the types of Jing used in these respective styles will most often not be the same. Just like the Jing of a swimmer will not be the same as the Jing of a baseball batter.

But, as Bob pointed out above, there really are no such things as 'styles,' only people moving. We like to categorize types of training into styles for convenience, yet they are only collections of principles and strategies. Whether these are adhered to or not depends on the individual practitioner.

Would it be fair to say that another possible definition of Jing is patterned energy? This as opposed to raw, purely directional energy, much in the same way that electrical or mechanical oscillation has profoundly different effects than plain 'vector'(?) energy?

Just a thought.

somethings cannot be explained and just exist, humanity seems to feel intimidated by the unexplainable, you can debate all you want as far as tim removeing the mysticism hes putting the concept into a more acceptable terms chi is real all this muscle group bs may be true but age degenerates muscles so how does a 90yr old man defeat a man in his prime? and as far as no difference in internal&external thats complete bull chi development is what seperates the displines(i cant spell but you get the idea)you all are thinking like western but your studying eastern pratices all the old masters arnt muscle bound brutes but frail looking sissies(internal masters in general)do some reaserch and see but go into it like you know nothing, or youll just find way to justify your thoughs if theses pratices were of no value they would have been discontinued long ago id like to elaborate further but......is it worth it?

I think you should change your name to "arrogantly uneducated"! Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, rather than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Show me a 90 year old that can beat a man in his prime and I'll show you a man in his prime that hasn't a clue!

The only 90 year old man I've ever seen who actually can beat a man in his prime is Helio Gracie.

ps He's never heard of Qi.

Humble Schalor wrote:
"...thats complete bull chi..."

It sounds like "complete bull-chi" is all he's been buying into so far in your humble pursuit so far.

I don't know about a 90 year old beating a young man but Kenichi Sawai was beating 25 year old koyokushinkai karate blackbelts when he was in his seventies.

Here's a splendid example of Fa Jing.

http://www.break.com/index/tigers_golf_swing_in_slo_motion.html