Hello Tim,

I was just curious if you teach, practice, or have ever learned iron palm? Some of the stuff I have read indicates that iron palm and iron body were probably traditional aspects of bagua training.

Thanks,
Richard

Richard,
We don't practice the "iron palm."

Traditional Baguazhang training didn't include iron palm training either.

Over-conditioning one part of the body to be used as a weapon is generally frowned upon in the Internal martial arts. IMAs prefer to develop "whole body power."

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the response. I was not thinking of hard-style external conditioning, but rather less abusive practices. But if you don't purposefully train any body part extra then that answers my question. I take it you feel that sparring and bag work provide all the impact conditioning necessary?

Richard,
Right, sparring, bag and pad work provide most of the contact conditioning. We also have separate practices that help develop the ability to absorb blows.

There are thousands of styles of Bagua. Some styles do include Iron Palm, Chin Na and weapons. The key to Bagua and any real art is to not learn any of these techniques separately rather they need to be part of the overall training. However, Iron Palm SHOULD NEVER EVER scar or disfigure your hands, at least not in an Internal Art style

I’m also concerned with the term “absorb blow”. In Bagua I’ve been taught to deflect, and or redirect. I understand that you need to absorb some of the blow, but only as far as it takes to redirect or trigger another strike. In theory Bagua should be purely offensive, never giving an opponent the opportunity to center him/herself for a strike.

Tim,
Please excuse my ignorance and I hope that anything I wrote did not in anyway offend you. I bow to you as a Master. I’ve respected you and your writings for years in various publications including Pakua Journal. Again my apologies if I offended.

Hi Mike,

If one is so superior that he/she will never be struck then your premise would be valid. Assuming, however that no one is so good that they will never be struck it is necessary to be able to withstand the punishment when they are hit with a heavy blow. Tim's training is directed to this eventuality. Regardless of the strength of your offense, if you are unable to withstand a blow and are indeed struck, the fight is over.

this might just be my opinion(once again)
but deflecting or redirecting a strike has
nothing to do with absorbing it.does it?
sparring should teach you all
you need to know about absorbing blows!
and if you don't get hit,then why bother training how to absorb blows?
anyway how do you train that?
you let your buddy punch you in the face as hard as he can?
FIGHT CLUB "i want you to hit me as hard as you can!!!" "WHAT"!

Hi Marc,

The idea is that no one is perfect. If one is not perfect and misses a block then that person gets hit. If you get hit you have to be able to take the punch/kick and continue fighting. Neikung training will enable a person to take punches with no injury that would put most people on the ground.

Example: While in Taiwan I was a student of Hsu Hong Chi. The school put on a demonstration that attracted about 5,000 spectators. It was Double Ten Day (Taiwan's equivalent of the 4th of July). Ah Huan was about 5'4" tall and might have weighed 120 lbs. He walked to the center of the floor and Hsu Laoshi invited the biggest man in the audience to come out of the crowd. The guy was a G.I. in the U.S. military. He was roughly 6'5" tall and weighed somewhere around 240 lbs. Ah Huan stood flat footed, offering no defense and allowed this guy to punch him full power in the body. Each time the guy hit him it would knock him back into the arms of a guy who was stationed behind him. The guy would push him back into position and the big guy would hit him again. He took five full power punches before the guy realized he couldn't hurt him. Ah Huan smiled and they shook hands. Ah Huan was not injuried and felt no pain. In fact he continued with two more parts he had in the demonstration later on. One was a form and the other was a free-fighting match.

This ability to absorb blows is simply blown apart when you hit this type of chi kung guy with a pheonix fist strike to the floating rib area and they drop to the ground like a sack of potatoes... until that point they were happily taking strikes and punches... but pheonix fist is like having the potting end of a snooker cue rammed into you, providing you've conditioned the index finger to a tensile degree

I've seen this actually happen!!!

Nuff Said

Mike,
Your opinions are welcome.

Marc,
Maybe you'd be more familiar with boxers learning to "roll with a punch."

yes Tim,i know what that is.you're right it is absorbing!
just taking it,is a different thing.
like taiwan 69-73 said the dude just stood there and let someone hit him.
maybe the guy did not hit that hard?(it's not because he's big he can hit hard)
it was in the body!it won't knock you out!
and he was expecting it!!!that's the main thing!
the punches that makes the most damage,are the ones that you don't see coming!!!?

Proper neikung training allows the practicioner to take punches that would drop virtually anyone else. So the question is could you take these same punches? The big guy had more than enough power to drive the smaller man back a half dozen feet with each punch. Additionally, these guys who happily take these punches in demonstration are not going to be allowing the attacker such leeway in a fight. They are going to be defending and attacking. If you drive your index finger second knuckle deep into someone's eye you are also going to drop them. The question is value. Is there value in the training? If you accompany the benefits of the training with those things one does in combat it should be clear that there is advantage. In a combat situation you would also move the part being targeted in the same direction the strike is taking thereby lessing the power that you will be absorbing, that is if you can't block or avoid the strike entirely. I should also mention here that anyone who hasn't seen a boxer knocked out with a body punch hasn't watched much boxing. A liver punch is the most notorious. I have seen champions put down for the ten count with a body punch.

Also, if you don't see it coming you can't slip it so it is even more important to be able to take the punch. The attack mentioned by Fatboy (phoenix fist) requires a degree of conditioning that few can actually achieve. To execute it without breaking your own finger you almost have to be able to do a one finger (no thumb, just the one finger) push up. If you're going to attack the ribs there are several methods that are as effective but don't require the same level of conditioning.

I have noticed on here that many people associate chikung and neikung training with the IMA only. The truth is many practitioners of the external arts also participate in this type of training. I find that most people who belittle a given form of training or a given type of martial art are those who do not participate in them. In other words, I don't do it so it can't be any good. If you haven't partaken how do you know?

Hey try doing the one finger pressup if your a big fatboy, can't be done, only 10 to 13 stone maximum dudes can do it, any heavier and you can't do it. Thats not whats required phoenix fist is used in Hsingi & Yiquan, but not the big long finger, it's the one next to the thumb.

The conditioning is done by hitting a hard heavy bag, not full power to begin with, you work up to that, and maybe a bucket of sand so your skin don't rip off your hand if you actually hit someone, finger pressups aint required and have never been shown to me to condition the finger nuckle. The knuckle is also supported by the thumb either to one side or on top. Your right in as much as if you don't condition theres a 50/50 of who gets hurt you and/or opponent. And obviously you would'nt want to hit someone on their forehead with it, mostly soft awkward areas such as armpit, eye, neck, floating ribs, lower abs.

And yes a phoenix fist to the eye is gonna take out someone.

I have been involved in the study and teaching of Hsing I since 1970 and the particular hand positioning for use in a strike you are talking about was never emphasized in the style I studied. There was another particular striking method for attacks to the ribs that was emphasized. This particular strike would actually separate the ribs and allow for a degree of penetration between them. A relatively light attack with this strike is very painful, rather like being struck in the ribs with an ax. Generally a strike using the first two knuckles supported by the thumb was preferred for strikes to the soft areas you mention. My teacher was also Tim's first teacher, Hsu Hong Chi. He also taught that it was not necessary to intentionally callus the knuckles or hands in any way to be effective. In fact one of his favorite sayings was that the hand should be like "silk over steel".

Still, the question regarding the neikung training is, "Does the conditioning have value? Is it better to be able to absorb the kind of punishment that Ah Huan absorbed in the demonstration or to be an untrained individual who would have been dropped by the first punch?" I don't see how anyone could argue that the untrained individual has an advantage. If you're a practitioner of Hsing I I'm surprised that you aren't interested in neikung.

I had to sit down and figure out how many stone I weigh and it is in line with what you said about the one finger pushups. I weigh between 12 and 13 stone so your argument may be valid. I don't recall seeing anyone heavier than myself who could do this but I don't know for certain that it is not possible.

Charlie

can we talk in pounds?for F sake.
where the hell are you guys from?
the fingers were not made for hitting,it was made
for complex motor skills.monkeys and gorrilas
don't walk on there fingers,they walk on there
knuckles and fist!
fingers are too weak to withstand that kind of
impacts!
that is why muay thai uses elbows,knees and shins!
love marc

Taiwan wrote
"Does the conditioning have value? Is it better to be able to absorb the kind of punishment that Ah Huan absorbed in the demonstration or to be an untrained individual who would have been dropped by the first punch?"

I can train/show any reasonably fit guy, who can do a few sit ups, maybe has some core stability, learn to take a punch within half hour of training. The problem is taking the punch when you don't know it gonna strike, i.e. the when, the why and the whereabouts.

Hell I once see an relatively untrained lightweight female get taught how receive the shaolin iron bar bending trick on the neck, or should I say chest bone, the intructors only train was just puch forward with your chi and I will do the rest, and as if by magic ta da !!! the iron bar bent, well not what we in the west call an iron bar, I'm talking the chinese equivalent of 6 foot long push rod type bar thingamajig thingy

Fatboy,

Probably a rod used in reinforcing concrete in construction projects and you are correct it is a "trick". I have seen this one performed and there is a trick to it. You know all about this so I won't bother to tell you what the trick is.

I used the demonstration as an example not as the ultimate. Remember Ah Huan was a small thin man and he took 5 of these punches in succession, not one. I will guarantee An individual who receives real neikung training can also weather the unexpected punch. Most practitioners of the asian martial arts do believe in and desire training in neikung and chikung whether their art is internal or external. Clearly you do not so I will not bother to discuss it further with you. Good luck in your pursuits.

i think i said that first!when you don't see it coming,it will hurt a lot more.
neikung or not!
i'd like to see you man take a head shot like that.i can do it with a body shot !
it will hurt but i can suck it up.