Well, I'm interested, CMA have some very good methods of training the body to take impact.

why spend time learning how to take blows?
when you can use that time learning to avoid them?!
or better yet;learn to be the one hitting, controling the pace and timing!

reminds me of a post in robert smith's last book, martial musings... he tells a story about when wang shu jin took a challenge from him (robert smith) he kicked wang shu jin repeatedly on the legs (only allowed to kick the legs ), to no avail. also wang didn't flinch or anything. when asked how he did it he replied "chi". later on mr. smith followed wang home, and when he passed wang's house he heard the most anguished screams of pain he'd ever heard. I think it all boils down to a complex some chinese masters have.. national pride. Saving face... better to never admit that you are a human...the western nations had defeated the asians recently during these times, and they still proabably feel humiliated.... watch any bruce lee movie.. he's always beating up foreigners... perhaps that's why u don't see any chinese in mma.. bad to lose . bad to lose face..

You could also interpret Smith's version of that event in his recent book as an attempt to 'save face'on Smith's part.

It is always tough to judge an event so long after the fact when almost all the witnesses are dead or have had their memory tainted by the intervening years.

In any case, sensitivity to pain in the legs varies from person to person -- much more so in those who train in martial arts.

Hey whos to say Wang Shu Jin did'nt get home and stubbed his small toe on the corner of a door???

No Smith somehow want's us to believe that in all the countries in all the world of all the people smiths punches hurt wang shu jin...

Has anyone heard the story of the high ranking Japanese Karateka who broke his wrist punching Wangs belly ?

Why would Smith be listening to Wang outside his house, maybe wang have Smith something to listen to?

The way I heard the strory- Wang Shu Jin had manifested so much chi during the demonstration- when he arrived home- he immediatley mounted his wife. He was in such a rush he didn't wait for her to remove her cordory jeans and, as doctors later determined, entered through the wrong portal.

Hsu Hong Chi knew Smith personally. Smith studied with Hung I Hsiang who was also Hsu Laoshi's teacher. Hsu Laoshi told me that Smith didn't learn as much as he thought he did. He said that Hung Laoshi blew a lot of smoke in Smith's direction. I grew to be very close to Hsu Laoshi during the time I studied with him. I have no reason to doubt what he told me about Smith. Hsu Laoshi knew Wang Shu Jin very well and used to tell stories about some of the things he did. I think that's one of the advantages of having studied in Taiwan. We learned from martial artists who had first hand knowledge of such things. We didn't have to read about it in a book. Additionally, we were privileged to WITNESS many of the things that others only read about.

Fatboy,

After writing several threads attacking Neikung and Chikung now you're supporting the same thing defending what Wang Shu Jin accomplished with his training in both. I'm a little confused by this. Are you assuming that he is the only one who got anything out of this training or defending him because of his name and reputation? I spoke of Ah Huan (also one of Hsu Hong Chi's students) taking 5 body shots and you made fun of it. Wang Shu Jin takes a belly shot and you think it's wonderful. An Huan wasn't trying to break the other man's wrist. The Japanese karateka didn't break his wrist with the punch. Wang broke his wrist by twisting his body violently in the right direction at the right time. In Hsu Laoshi's classes some of us were given the neikung training, others weren't. It was a matter of his judgment whether you were worthy or not. He also taught us how and when to twist the body to break the wrist of someone executing the punch. There was never any intent to injure the other guy in demonstration so the twist was left out. However, if it was a matter of some wise a** or someone who was disliked the twist was used. Sometimes the wrist would break but more often it was only sprained.

Marc,

Neikung training isn't done in place of other training. It is in addition to all other training. In Hsu Hong Chi's school in Taipei it was done AFTER the formal class. I might add that no matter how hard you train to avoid being hit there will be times when you will be hit. I know you aren't going to tell me you never get hit.

hey fatboy, I didn't mention anything about punches to wang's belly. that was a totally different incident in a different book. smith was insuating that the KICKS TO WANG'S LEGS DiD hurt wang and that he was just compartmentalizing the pain (not showing it) to show how invincible he was. pay attention and read entire posts before you shoot off your fat digits (fingers) or perhaps change your name to fatmouth... or fatfingers...

69-73,

Can you verify that Wang Shu Jin's wife wore cordory jeans and had a piculiar gait.

Drifting off topic, but having read Smiths books over several decades, I noticed how the same story changed with each retelling and in my eyes Smith kept losing credibility. He admits in writing to loving to spread the B.S. as that was the custom in his crowd. Even in his 'serious' works I think he just couldn't control his urge to B.S. At least in the earlier works he freely stated that he desired only to get a taste of everything, and not go into depth in any one art.

Bob #2,

Never heard that one Bob. Never know, but corduroy wasn't particularly popular with middle age and older Chinese women. Maybe it was wool slacks. Wool is known to be somewhat rough in which instance both may have had to visit the hospital. As to the peculiar gait it may have been the shoes.

any 300lbs guy will laugh at you if you hit him in the gut!that's a no brainer!
plus any small asian women would scream,
under 300lbs!!!!!!!!
Smith is full of shmits!
ps. anyone is greater after they're dead!

what if the guy who hits the 300lb guy in the gut weighs 450lbs?

would he still laugh?

Bob #2,

Good point. I don't necessarily believe that he would be laughing if the right smaller man hit him. The speed of the strike has a lot to do with the amount of penetration. If you increase the speed of the strike by 10% or increase the weight of the individual by 10% you will find that the increase in speed is more meaningful than the increase in weight. I am reminded of the example of the straw that is inbeded two inches into a tree as a result of a tornado.

I still think it was the shoes.

Charlie

Taiwan whatisname wrote
"After writing several threads attacking Neikung and Chikung now you're supporting the same thing defending what Wang Shu Jin.....blah blah blah"


It's a twist? where do you get your evidence from that the wrist was broke with a twist of the waist?

Are you sure it's not a sudden reverse breathing exhalation with body going forward at the same time, the belly goes from very softly soft, to rock ••••••• hard in a millisecond, thats what snaps/sprain hurts the wrist,

perhaps you would like to eleborate further on your twisting waist method can hurt the wrist???

If your method is to be taken seriously every time a boxer rolled a punch the other boxer would get a sprained wrist... bawhahahahahah!!!!!!!!

BOP wrote a load of shiite saying how I did'nt refer correctly to his post in a whingy whiney fashion and that I must be talking shiite, the fact is fool gut or legs it don't take away what I said...get outta my face fool.. leg or gut whatever don't change what I said...

If you have ever been in a fight (unlikely) you will appreciate the fact that you don't much feel like screaming later from any injuries you received, if your injured you just want to lay up in bed, take some painkiller and roll up in a ball, unless your a whingey whiney pussy? Or someone who is foolish enough to imagine people screaming 3 hours later from an injury... oh I did see that in Road Runner Carton where wylie cyote has a delayed scream from an injury... Beep Beep... but that's in cartoon land BOB, any thing can happen in BOBs cartoon land !!!

Attack on the fundemental flaw/weakness of NeiKung training

I challenge anyone or any NeiKung expert to put all of their chi into their teeth, a good striker can then take up their challenge and hit them full power in their mouth loosening or smashing the teeth, proving my point that you can't put chi into your teeth!!!! Bawahahahahahaah !!!

bob, a 300lbs man that know he's going to be punch in the gut,will not be dropped by it!
even if the guy is 450lbs!
how many 450lbs guys do you know that can throw
a decent punch?every guys that size are most likely sumo dudes or an average american
couch potato!

I know two 450lb guys who can break cinder blocks with punches.

That makes you an average couch potato chip.

I don't think that it has much to do with Chi / Qi other than the fact that if you don't have Qi you don't feel pain - dead people don't get hurt.

It's disappointing seeing people put up outlandish proposals to test Neigung accomplishment. At the risk of putting words in someones mouth, Taiwan 69-73 has stated basically that Neigung encourages a development of the body that facilitates the ability to absorb impact.

This is a simple statement and I don't see why it's open to such ridicule as it can also apply to a myriad of other training practises. For instance sparring where striking contact is allowed, as in western boxing.

Is this a useful ability in a fight - only an idiot would suggest otherwise.

Is it the only determining factor in winning a fight - only an idiot wiould believe this.

Neigung is part of CMA and is considered important by CMA traditions - end of story.

The results of Neigung obviously include some form of conditioning and any MA practitioner should understand the relevance of conditioning.

That's why Neigung does nothing to protect your eyes, testicles (unless you can retract them I suppose) and teeth because these areas of the body can't be conditioned!

How do you define your neigung training is a question I'd like to ask Taiwan 69-73.

For instance, some training practises one tradition of CMA includes in Neigung, another will term Yinggung (hardness skill) an essential component of which is to hit yourself with various objects.