in all the internal arts we have this concept of standing still.
and in all the styles they say that we should do some...for long time to get good grounding.
who trained standing like a post for long time?
I do have this practice as a basic in what I do and it's the exercises that everybody does.
but when I show it to some people as THE training, they look at me like they want something better.
well it's really the best I have!
of course, it get better with time, but it's the reason I punch with impact and that I am never sick.
it how I learned to meditate and the way I make my energy circulate.
that's the only training I did from the first up to now...23 years later.
try to get a good posture and stay for one hour a day without moving.no music or TV doing it!
you will see that most of the problems you can have regarding your training will go away;you will get the answerd by the standing practice.
see you,
serge

Tim has emphasized the value of standing practice in all of the Chinese arts I've seen him teach. Most Americans won't do it for an hour (even though Tim has said such is good), so he tries to get us to do it for at least 10-to-15 minutes a day. It's up to the student to take a teacher's advice or not.
I only held a posture once for half-an-hour (it was a strange, difficult posture of an unusual system) -- & it hurt. I could hardly move for days afterwards (as it put too much stress on my already bad knees). I've stood in other postures (Chinese internal-arts postures) for up to 20 minutes without any such problems. I do most of my standing practice while waiting on busses (& I find it easier before work than after since I spend most of my time on my feet at work).
Between Tim, you, & a Chi-Gung book I've got, I'm now convinced to spend an hour (or two) a day in standing practice (1 hour upright, & 10-to-15 minutes each in on-guard postures...if I can handle it...& with 10-to-20 minutes of forms & stepping practice plus 30-to-45 minutes of power exercises -- 3 hrs. total daily practice should be do-able; I'll give it a year for starts & see what happens)-- thanks y'all.

when you do the standing practice try sometime to put a timer on something like 45mn and cut all infos in front of you...
stay eyes focus in front of you, on nothing, concentrate on your fingers.
inhale and imagine you pull(but do not pull), exhale and imagine you push( still do not push)!
when it hurts, stay!
when you know you have to stop, stay!
i promise you you will be happy after 2 or 3 of these experiences.
you will be the one saying"do the standing postures!"
serge

Tim,

I practice ba gua. So, I'm familiar with circle walking and it's benefits. I am not clear on what the difference is between standing practice and circle walking. Do you feel it is necessary to practice both? What are the inherent benefits of each practice?

Also, I wanted to thank you for having such an excellent site where we can all learn.

I too agree with Tim about using Standing Postures...they both have been a blessing for me and my students, in both XingYi and Gao style Ba Gua...I think standing allows what I say is "your head and your insides to calm down and take advantage of the power-unity it brings".
My class used to do standing first before anything else, to help connect with this process. I saw alot of good come from this.
Best of Luck
Rick

JSTAL,
Since walking the circle while holding postures is referred to as "Xing Zhuang" (moving post) and stance keeping is "Zhan Zhuang" (standing post) it's apparent that the Chinese view the two practices as of the same training methodology. Personally, I think there is benefit to practicing both methods. In most schools of Ba Gua Zhang, although emphasis is placed on the Xing Zhuang, there is also at least one or two stationary postures that are practiced. In the Gao style, practitioners often stand in the "Guard" posture, "Xian Tian Zhuang" or Pre-Heaven Posture (the basic circle walking position) as well as a variation of the San Ti Posture of Xing Yi Quan, called "Hou Tian Zhang" or the Post-Heaven Posture. I think that spending some time on stationary postures is very beneficial no matter which style is practiced.

Xing Zhuang cultivates the ability to hold the upper body in a unit (correct alignment) and to focus the intent through a particular posture while in constant motion around an opponent.
Zhan Zhuang cultivates the same type of power while emphasizing stability. So basically the two variations of post training emphasize stability and focus of power and intent while staionary and while in motion.

Yeah, but will all that sh&t get you laid???
Just take steriods like Carlos Newton. Hotties dig that look...

I practice a version of the Xing Yi horizontal pole posture with my hotties. They love the pole posture. Perfect alignment.

After you get good, you add a little Zhan Zhuang. This cultivates the same type of power but you get all your blast from your unit. It drives them friggin' crazy. See folks, Xing Yi will get you laid...

"There's only one horizontal pole posture Betty, Big Balled Betty!"

Tim,
A few questions on zhan zhuang, shi li and mocabu as practiced in Yiquan.

1. I've met a number of Yiquan teachers ( e.g. Cui Ruibin ) who can take a punch ( or kick ) quite well: the moment you hit them it seems you hit into a massive rubber ball and your punch is rebounded. Invariably these teachers all say that zhan zhuang develops this elastic force. The technique to develop this capability however is not so clear to me. While we have been instructed to perform "micro movements" ( essentially minimal changes of body balance ) while keeping the postures the mental activity that goes with it was never explained. We noticed however that the muscles ( especially those of the legs ) of these teachers seemed to vibrate continuously. When I queried Cui Ruibin on this and asked if he voluntarily tensed/relaxed the muscles he said that this was not the case. It is unclear to me whether this muscle vibration is induced by very consciously shifting of the body balance and momentarily freezing the posture at x number of points or whether you instruct the mind to consciously give instructions to tense/relax the muscles without actually physically tensing/relaxing them.

2. One is supposed to test the potential of force while going through various shi li exercises. These exercises all have one main direction of movement: back and forth, up and down, etc... How can one develop a capability to instantaneously change the direction of force while e.g. mainly moving backward and forward.

3. What should one really look for in mocabu exercises - is it just an exercise in transferring your centre of gravity from one foot to another?

1. In response to the ability to take punches, I believe standing will develop this ability to a certain degree because the postures strengthen the muscles of the whole body (including the torso) and the relaxation/tonus of the postures develops a kind of 'elastic' nature in the body that can help it absorb force. The technical aspects of learning to absorb blows are taught during push hands and sparring as well (much like Western boxers are taught to absorb and roll with punches). I am not sure why your teachers legs seem to vibrate all the time. He may be practicing some kind of tensing/relaxing or movement. When I studied with my teacher, shaking legs was a phenomena that happened to beginners (as their legs fatigued). It was a sign of improvement when the legs stopped shaking. The advanced practitioners were as steady as mountains.

2. The movements in Shi Li practice should be 'three dimensional,' meaning there is always some movement through three planes; horizontal movement, vertical movement and rotational movement should be present in each of the exercises.

3. Mocabu is designed to teach the student how to maintain balance and train whole body power when stepping. Basically it is footwork training. There should be a controlled extension of one leg in whichever direction you want to go, the shifting of the COG to that leg without loss of balance which results in the power of the whole body moving three dimensionally like a wave.

Tim

I've read that you suggest 45 minutes daily of standing (15 in one position, 30 total in several others). I have found comments from older generations suggesting 1 hour in a single position, or even suggesting several positions totaling 3 hours daily.

Is your 45 a recommended minimum? Do you feel there is an optimum for best results?

Hi Mark,
Forty five minutes is the overall maximum length of time I recommend for standing. It's based on the teachings of the Yi Quan school of stance keeping (at least as taught by my teacher Gao Liu De, whose teacher was a student of the founder). The logic for the 45 minute limit is based on the same law of diminishing returns that applies to all other forms of exercise. For example, when it comes to aerobic exercise, most experts agree that it takes a minimum of 12 minutes of continuous exercise at the individual's target heart rate to produce a training effect (improvement in CV endurance). After about 30 minutes of CV training, the training effect drops dramatically. So you will get 100% benefit (improved CV output) from 30 minutes of aerobic activity but considerably less improvement for exercise continuing past a half hour mark. The same principle applies to lifting weights. There is an optimal amount of productive exercise beyond which further training becomes counterproductive (it becomes overtraining, which is a form of negative stress).

So the trick for all types of physical training is to find the correct amount of positive stress, the amount that will result in a maximum increase in the particular variable you are aiming to improve, without doing too much (overtraining), which ultimately results in negative stress and a decrease in output. Why 45 minutes of standing? As far as the actual science goes, I couldn't tell you. It was the length of time the founder of Yi Quan and his first students felt (through trial and error) produced the optimum training effect without over-stressing the body. It's also important to note that 45 minutes was the goal to work up to, gradually, over time.

Maybe the best way to determine how long you should stand is to increase the length of time gradually until you feel you are no longer making marked gains in strength, endurance and focus, or, you feel consistently tired and sore, or stale mentally (symptoms of overtraining).

Is the only way to reach the level of the old school Xing Yi grand masters is to stand like they did, 45min twice a day for three years before real training began?

Or is there some "secret" out there that I could find if I keep reading? I'm being sarcastic.

I think we should simply emulate their dedication and stop being so western. Yes stand as long as your able, 3 to 5 hours or 8 to 12 hours. What

Tim said about "negative stress" is also important. Dont try to stand for 45 minutes if the longest you have done is 15 minutes or if you practiced footwork and kicks all week. And dont stand for 3 hours if you never did 45 minutes. And dont stand for 12 hours if you never stood for 8 hours. You positively stress your body slowly until its strong enough for more positive stress. I think there should be no limit in standing just consciousness of not over working yourself to injury. Remember if your mind is not there, that may be a sign of over training.

I started training hard again recently, probally harder than ever before and I'm up 40 minutes once a day. The goal is immortality. Wish me luck.

does this mean you're positively stressing yourself to post on every thread ever?

I think the point was, "don't stand for three hours, period.".

Kenichi Sawaii was known for standing for three hours every morning; but the system he was taught was a departure from yiquan and I have heard that such practice in TaiKiKen can eventually be detrimental you the health of your back.

At the Yiquan schools in China, students stand for no more than an hour total twice a day. (two hours, not exceeding three) Its because of the very reason Tim cited, the law of diminishing returns. Some people say they don't get tired doing internal work like zhanzhuang. Personally, I find it suprisingly exhausting, so I'm not quite sure they are doing it right. Goes to show that its exercise after all.

This debate about how long one should stand is irrelevent to those who cant stand for 3 hours like me. If I was able to stand for 3 hours, I would argue that my grounding is much deeper than one who stands for 45 minutes. That is my basic logic on this.

Tim makes it clear that overtraining is counterproductive. This is learned now a days in intro health courses in universities around the country. Tim learned this from the YiQuan masters who learned through trial and error. For some reason even unknown to Tim 45 minutes was the goal, and they felt that, that it would be enough for to benefit their specific YiQuan martial methods.

Yet there are many classic texts talking about training which is 45 minutes twice a day or even 3 hours. Thereare monks alive today who meditate for 8 to 12 hours in all sorts of wierd postures. I'm sure these monks with no lives have "trialed and errored" themselves. For this reason even Tim believes "Maybe the best way to determine how long you should stand is to increase the length of time gradually until you feel you are no longer making marked gains in strength, endurance and focus, or, you feel consistently tired and sore, or stale mentally (symptoms of overtraining)."


Shane, you are my teacher.

Re: Time spent standing

It all depends on what you want to achieve, for those who like to fight, 45 mins is a good amount to stand. That way you still have time to do cardio work, hit bags, train with partners etc.

Like I.T. said, monks can stand for hours at a time in all sorts of silly positions. Monks aren't that interested in fighting ability (even Shaolin monks). First and foremost a monk wants to become enlightened. If you want to become enlightened, meditating for long periods under competent instructors is neccesary. Internal Struggle, if you really want to become an immortal, seek out others who have achieved it and study under them. They aren't all that difficult to find if you are sincere.

Good luck in your quest,
Dummy

It took one year and ten days but I can now hold (comfortably) my basic posture for one hour. I did have to make some compromises though. Instead of five days in a row then a day off, I went to only two days on, one day off.(although I still do other exercises on the days I don't 'post'. I had to cut all my core exercises to the two/one pattern as I just didn't recover well enough. (the off days I do balance exercises and a few reps of previous exercises I've worked on).

The other compromise I made was not to use a single arm position. The positions will vary during the hour but the arms are never below the shoulders.

My question is this: Where do I go from here with the standing practice? I'm thinking of maintaining this for three months then start trying (one at a time) the 'original' Yichaun positions found elsewhere on the net. (Not the modern ones which are all very slight variations of the same thing)

Comments please, has anybody else been there with some personal experience?

Should a beginner stand with the arms relaxed down along the sides of the body (as explained in Frantzis' Energy Gates book) before practicing "holding the ball" and other postures that require the arms to be held up? I find that, as a novice, there is enough to concentrate on (proper alignments) that perhaps the more "advanced" postures should wait until I get comfortable with standing in a neutral position. Any comments?

Internal martial arts training needs to be balanced, geared towards understanding and demonstrating the basic principles, where the emphasis should be on quality not necessarily quantity. Beginners should be cautious, discover their own limits and work within them and gradually seek to extend those boundaries as they adapt physically and mentally to the demands of training. The mental requirements/demands on post standing should not be underestimated.

How long you stand, may depend on short term and long term goals, different schools place different requirements. The Che xingyi quan school only has students hold san ti for only 5/10 minutes while the Hebei School students may spend an hour or two. Which is right?

I'm cautious by nature and I 'lean' towards the Che school, I stand everyday usually at the end and beginning of a training session for about ten to fifteen minutes max each time. Post standing exercises are an essential part of my training, and should be a fundamental part for any beginner, but I tend to not over emphasise it at the expense of other parts of a training regime.

> 'original' Yichaun positions found elsewhere on
> the net. (Not the modern ones which are all
> very slight variations of the same thing)

I'm a Yiquan practitioner and I'm really curious what exactly you mean by that.