Tim, based on what I've read about you you seem grounded in reality. So I'd like your feedback.

Looking into the work of Herbert Benson, I came across research he did with Buddhist Monks. The monks apparently could slow their metabolism by 60% (supposedly humanly impossible), generate so much heat they can dry cold wet sheets by draping them over their bodies, and withstand freezing cold mountain temperatures while wearing practically nothing. Apparently these skills are a result of meditation practice. With the view that Herbert Benson is reputable, doesn't it seem likely that "ancient Chinese masters" attained similar "supernatural" skills and that they used it in their fighting arts? You know, like using qi to defeat the opponent or what not where the technique was more a manifestation of mind or something than a typical (what we are all familiar with) punch or throw or something?

Apparently you've spent 10 years in China and Taiwan searching for masters. Were you open to finding masters with "supernatural abilities"? If so, did you ever see anything of the sort? or was everything you saw the standard example of "strong person with good techniques" variety?

Here's a description of a so-called qigong master demonstrating his qi. The guy's name is Bruce Frantzis. This description is from an investigative journalist who as far as I can tell is reputable and bases her work wholly in science:

"During my own meeting with him, Frantzis gave a short demonstration of the power of directed qi. After a moment of intense concentration, the plates of his skull began to undulate over the top of his head like a rolling surf."

Now this sounds utterly ridiculous and makes me laugh out loud. Somehow I doubt this guy would last 2 minutes in an MMA ring. But then there's the Herbert Benson research and this description above from a reputable investigative journalist. With the backdrop of arts like Taijiquan talking a lot about qi and using meditation to reach high levels of skill of awareness jing where the mind is super sensitive to stimuli and the opponents' intentions (things that mindful meditation has been shown to cultivate in people), it seems highly plausible to me that at least in the past, "supernatural skill" of some variety was used in the fighting arts. Of course I've seen zero proof of it today. But today I do read of "supernatural feats" (ie, the Buddhist monks) and great fighting technique (ie, modern high-skilled martial artists). It would seem all that needs to be done is combine the two.

Would you share your thoughts on this with us. Do you believe any of this is real? Maybe in the past but not anymore, etc.? And how come there are people that you meet and they are claimed as modern day Qigong masters but all they can do is undulate their head?

thank you

Hello Fred,

I've read Benson's books. It's important to note Benson didn't find any "supernatural" powers when he studied the monks either. For example, the monks could raise their external body temperature (a feat duplicated in the West by people trained in biofeedback techniques) but not their core temperature (which would have at least been "supernormal"). The monks certainly had exceptional physical control, but could do nothing inexplicable through science.

I was open to anything when I lived in Taiwan and China. I never saw a single thing that was "supernatural" or beyond what could be explained by hard training or technique.

I've never once seen a convincing demonstration that qi exists (at least in a martial context). I did see a lot of tricks and bullshit.

I'm not sure why people today would buy into the idea that these supernatural powers were obtained in the distant past, but the knowledge of such development is lost today. We know far more about how the body works now, and have an infinitely greater understanding of physics. Seems if these special powers were obtainable, we'd be obtaining them now.

Not to drop the level of the conversation too many notches...but I'm not sure I'd even WANT my skull to undulate.

On a serious note...A Chinese friend of mine traveled from teacher to teacher for six years. He knows touching points( I felt it...it was hell) and other things that people have equated with the super powers thing. I asked him if he ever saw something supernatural or something that he couldn't explain and he gave me a one word answer, "No."

When I used to be a monk in a Vietnamese Zen tradition, I never saw anything that would be considered super-natural or out of the ordinary. I never heard anything about qi or internal energy nor any practices about micro-cosmic orbit or stuff. I had met a lot of monks from all over the world, (including the Vice-Abbot of Emeishan, who I attended while he stayed with us for a few weeks) and in my discussions with him and other monks I only heard a lot of talk about mindfulness, meditation, and repeating Amitabha's name over and over.

Quite frankly, none of the monks I met had any special abilities. Nor did I develop any, however I did learn how to develop a finer attunement to my body and mind. It also taught me how to focus or ignore certain sensations of the senses and mind. Even though my sensitivity has dulled a bit since I left monastic life, I still find it easy to stay calm in tough spots, and not let my emotions rule my life. Another thing that I found useful was learning how to slow my heart rate a little, it helps me sleep when I need to but can't (which is rare I might add).

I've never read Bensons' stuff (I do have Relaxation Response on order though), I can say that the meditation I do is very practical and down-to-earth. The Historical Buddha if I remember from my studies only taught that our meditation practice should be there as a vehicle for learning to let go and accept the realities of existence. He never meant it for people to develop super-natural powers.

"I only teach two things: Dukkha (suffering, pain, discomfort, etc.) and its end."

-Gautama Buddha

Take it easy.

Herbert Benson's Nobel prize awarded work (1956) is based on the "Relaxation Response".
In MA the RR is the practitioners ability to overcome the sympathetic nervous systems "Fight or Flight" rush of the catecholamine cascade by initiating a parasympathetic nervous system response and excretion of Norepinepherine when the faced with stress. The initiation of the RR or the avoidance of an adrenaline (epinephrine) reaction is done by any number of Bio-Feed back techniques. Yoga, Tai Chi and other hygienic practices cultivate a habitual RR and make it more available to the practitioner when faced with danger.
contrary to your assertion of SUPERNATURAL feats The RR in Herbert Benson research was precisely a study of natural physiological phenomena.

I was under the impression that a non-monk who went to a 15,000 ft. height in the winter of mountains wearing a sheet would have come down with frostbite and/or hypothermia.

But if I understand what everyone is saying correctly, this is a feat that any non-monk can accomplish if they train as hard as the monk's did before attempting it. And this, the hard training regime, is what explains the monk's accomplishment as opposed to tapping some kind of "supernatural" ability.

Do I understand this correctly?

thanks for the feedback everybody

For the most part, I think genetics might play a big part in it. I have noticed over the years, both in the monastery and outside, that people can only adapt to a certain degree. Take cold and heat for example; many cultures that come from warmer climates like those in South East Asia find themselves unable to adapt to cold weather.

I saw many of the Vietnamese monks or nuns wearing lots layers at times I thought it was warm (I'm from Southern California). Many of them even though they've been in the West awhile still couldn't adapt to cooler temperatures.

What I'm saying is that the Monks Mr. Benson is refering to (Tibetans I think) are more adjusted to the cold weather. Which may some what contribute to their "abilities."

My two cents.

Harry Houdini jumped into frozen over lakes with locks chains and a strait jacket on.
Not even a sheet...
And was able to escape and never got hypothermia or frostbite.
Then again Houdini was Magic.
A supernatural magic that not even Bob#2 can understand correctly.

feedback for the betterment of all to understand
TCB

"For the most part, I think genetics might play a big part in it. I have noticed over the years, both in the monastery and outside, that people can only adapt to a certain degree. Take cold and heat for example; many cultures that come from warmer climates like those in South East Asia find themselves unable to adapt to cold weather. "

Most of that is development adaptation, not genetic differences.

double post

(Excuse my naivety - Tai Chi beginner with a whole 6 months under his belt)!.....but what's going on here then...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_gmMqzf2I8

....if there's nothing over and above a good teacher, hard training and skillful technique? Is it a student awe thing perhaps? Or paid assistants??

Not a sarcastic enquiry, I'm honestly completely open-minded on this. I'd just genuinely like to know. I absolutely hate the idea of potentially spending years studying something in expectation of an ability/power that will never be realised. If one's skill is totally about application and dedication, then great .....and to be completely honest, the "no substitute for hard work" angle does have the ring of truth about it

I've seen Kumar move the various parts of his cranium. It's a very subtle movement, not exactly undulating or anything. He can move lotsa weird parts of his body. I don't think he ever claimed it was supernatural, nor did he say it had anything to do with MMA. He does teach that you can control and access much more of your body if you train it, than an untrained person can.

-Jess O

John,

You answered your own question.

Tim,

why is the answer inevitably always the one that nobody wants to hear ?

(Seriously though, thanks for the confirmation)