Hello,

Can anyone shed a light on this concept, as expounded by Prof Stuart McGill ? I've only read brief explanations of this on the web. I have not read his books.

I understand it as rapid and synergistic contraction of all the muscles at the moment of impact, preceded and followed by some degree of relaxation.

To be more specific, how does it relate to the 'issuing of power' in martial arts? Also on the suggestion that to be stable/rooted, one must be
relaxed (in addition to having the right posture).

This brings to mind the analogy of road bikes and mountain bikes.One without shockbreakers to minimize energy loss,but only good for smooth roads.The other with shockbreakers is tiresome on the road, but good for rough terrain.

I'm asking from this background:
- I'm not a martial artist, but thinking of doing BJJ and/or boxing.
- I used to do triathlon and rock climbing. Now lifts free weights to rehab chronic back pains (squats,lunges,bench press,etc).Regular taichi for rehabs purpose. So I have no experience on impact sports.



thanks, and sorry if the q is too vague.
RJ

Rangga,

Your question is so vague I can't find it in your post.

Sorry,
In bed from flu,brain turns to noodle.

What concepts in IMA is similar/consistent with super-stiffness? (snort..)

Thanks
rj

Why not first explain what 'super stiffness' is, or post a link to an explaination?

Looking back at the post again, seems like that is the concept behind the karate reverse punch. This can be ok but I prefer the 'whip like' methods found in Chinese arts.

The first is ok but I think the think the second method is more versatile, and less hazardous to the user. Also it seems that the 'softer' method can be used into old age better than the first.

Hi Mark, here is the link

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/326/

RJ

The discusion in the link sounds more applicable for power lifting.

In this article, McGill also mentioned that this concept are used in martial arts (which one?). But I have no experience to know better.

The guy who has been cajoling me to go to his boxing gym demonstrated how the body must relax throughout a punch in order to increase speed, but stiffen at impact. He did not use the word whip, but said let the fist to 'just shoot out'.

On the other hand, is stiffness absent at all times in the whip-like chinese method?

thanks
rj

Now that my head and nose are a bit clearer, I think this is the reason for me asking:

- I had tried the 'soft' methods (e.g. pilates, yoga) to fix my back, but only 'weights therapy'(squats,lunge,snatch,clean etc) managed to do the job. Heavy,low reps. I guess you can call this stiffness.
- After 3 months of this therapy, I reduced the sessions to once a week, and started taichi. Then my back (and whole body) felt even better and stronger. The two methods seem to employ diametrically opposite principles.

The nagging questions: Did the 'stiffness' method work because I'm still young enough to do all that power weight stuff? Is this just a quick fix then? Is the 'non-stiff' method the answer as I get older and weaker? Would have I improved this much by taichi alone?

Or...have I completely misunderstood the concepts of 'stiffness' and 'softness', putting them in arbitrary boxes based on superficial knowledge?

Then the McGill article suggests that it is the timing and transition between the two states that matter.

Hence the vague question

rj

Hmmm even I can't decipher the gibberish from the last two posts.

Let me start again by posing 4 very specific questions:
1) In 'soft' martial arts like taichi do you brace/stiffen your stomach muscles (like in power lifting) at any time during striking?
(not striking the air, but real object/person, so there's a reaction force)
2) If the answer is 'no', do you allow any substantial movement in the spine (i.e. relative movement between the vertebraes i.e. the spine changes curvature) during this process ?
3) If the answer to (2) is 'yes', does this constitute what is usually termed as 'whip-like' movement ?
4) If the answer to (2) is 'no', how do you keep the spine from doing that,given, in a horizontal strike, there is a reaction force with a vector component that is not parallel to the spine's compressional axis.

Thanks
-rj

No takers?
This is the only forum I can hope to get quality answers from.

rj

answer to 1. yes.

answer to 3. it can.

answer to 4. you cant.

1) In 'soft' martial arts, the artist would have a strong, toned musculature from years of difficult exercises and forms, postures, sparing and fighting. There would be a natural 'tightness' of the abdomen. (Assuming the artist was practicing to 'fight' they'd have a rock hard body).... not tense but hard (pythons are soft, right?) But what I think you're asking, I cannot convincingly answer because I'm not a fighter- and I don't have the inner drive to study the IMA as if I was. But my understanding is that the 'soft' martial artist would not intentionally stiffen their stomach during a strike... but their stomach would be hard by default.

2) If your spine moves, you need to seek medical help immediately.

I studied with Tim for a long time and he teaches total relaxation throughout the strike.
(Not limp, noodlely chi-hugger limp, just relaxed as in: holding no tension).

One of the numerous illustrative comparisons I've heard Tim use that a good baseball player will use trained alignment and excellent timing to swing the bat at the ball- the swing, though powerful, is relaxed and carried by the tork and release of power by the hitter (transferred from the ground up in a wave or whip-like energy- as the bat meets the ball, the relaxed swing continues its natural arc- the combination of timing, trained alignment and relaxation generate long drives and home runs....

the only time a good batter tenses up on a swing is when he wants to bunt. (while it still takes skill, the bat does not have a natural arc, the batter does not need or use much alignment nor generated force).

And yes, whip-like power and wave-like power is something on which Tim places a lot of emphasis.

I hope that helps.

whats up shane, im not trying to start an arguement, but what about linear strike such as straight punches used in xing yi, are you still not tensing the stomach, and how is it possible to generate force into a straight punch without muscular tension? most martial artists even the internal ones exhale on a punch naturally contracting the abdomen diaphragm etc.

i can understand the baseball analogy with hook type punches...

but even with those, the attack still needs a "snap" which is also generated by muscle tension and not just gravity and centrifugal force alone.

lol, did i use that word right.?

Hi Tim

In another thread where was talk about a taiji - dvd.

If you decide to do one would this wave/whip - like motion be explained/showed?


Tobias

robert,

Just trying to answer part of a question. Tim'll hopefull fill in the gaps. (I know in IMA there is a concept of pulling the naval toward the spine which would tighten the stomach).

Heck it I know man... I'm a hobbiest.
(and haven't even hobbied in a long time)

Shane

If you crack a whip, the inherent structure of the whip remains soft but at the moment it cracks, the energy transfered through it makes the whip hard as steel.

Just wanna get the wave analogy straight.

1) If we take a general definition: for an energy transfer to be classified as mechanical waves, there has to be a continual conversion between kinetic and potential energy(vice versa) as the energy travels. How is the potential energy stored? By the elasticity of the muscles?

2) Forget about the limbs now, let's focus on the torso as the wave medium. I guess it's not an undulating(transverse) wave, but more of a compressional(longitudinal) wave that travels up the muscles of the torso ?

thanks
RJ

Sorry some more questions.

In whip-cracking, what the (transverse) wave does to the whip material is to compress it at the concave side of the wave, and stretch it at the convex side. So as the wave travels there's a continuous alternation of compression and stretch in the whip.

I guess the instantanous hardness comes about when the material compresses very rapidly, as the wave reaches its sonic-boom speed?

How far can we stretch this analogy to martial arts(or sports in general) biomechanics?

I'd say, if your goal is IMA ability- practice relaxing while hitting pads and bags and then spar regularly so that you can learn to relax under pressure while working in your IMA throws and techniques.

When you can relax while swinging your arms (as if both were a passed-out friend) in hooks or straight punches- you'll gain the 'heaviness' that IMA practicioners utilize.

I could be wrong, but based on the last two posts, you're over-thinking it. 'Martial' by definition is physical.

*after re-reading your ealiest poast; if you are looking for something primarily to recover from injury, stay with the Tai ji Chaun if its helping your back. If your primary goal is learning applicable fighting, stick with the boxing guy who discussed relaxing for speed.
(3 months from now you'll easily be able to incorporate what he teaches into Tai Ji than the other way around).

I've got a suspicion the boxer understands more about power and energy transference than the average Tai Ji Grandmaster.
(They say Mohammed Ali threw punches as if he was try to thow the gloves off of his hands).

Also, whenever top notch boxers shadow-box- their fists are not closed. Usually the fingers are so relaxed that the hands are hardly in the shape of a fist. When the same boxer knows his hand is about to hit something- he makes the 'fist')

Shane