It was mentioned in your hsing i nei gong book that some methods teach people to unnaturally push out their lower back(ming men point) but that is not natural.

Didn't old time internal martial artists intentionally align themselves this way to have more stability and develop more power? Did you find that you can develop more power withotu having to push out the lower back?

Personally, I find it adds a lot of power and root to my stance when moving and standing still. In the beginning my lower back was very tight but that has eased.

I almost feel weak now when I don't push out my ming men.

I believe it is incorrect to use the body in an unnatural way. All things are more powerful when used according to their natural design. There are curves in the spine for a reason, trying to flatten the lower back will only reduce one's power output and potentially set one up for injury.

The spine should be lengthened from the crown of the head and allowed to maintain its natural alignment. The lower back should not be over-arched nor flattened.

I find that the posture is not forced. It should be relaxed, almost as if you’re slouching. Wing chun (as well as a few other southern systems) stylists does a variation, though most students never figure it out. I agree that the posture is unnatural, though. Life-long practitioners of these systems that I have met have poor-looking postures. Some old-timers I know who use to box and prefer to work it on the inside are hunched over a bit.

One taijiquan instructor I know is now in his 60s. His shoulders are slightly hunched, with one being higher than the other. Hell, his posture’s crappy. That said, even with such a seemingly poor posture, he can absorb & generate a lot of force in a relax manner.

Though combat is not his focus in training, I have no doubt he could be very dangerous if he had to defend himself. He has what kung fu stylists like to call “tiger bones”. To me he feels almost like a tire. Soft but solid. Wing chun’s one inch punch got nothing on him as he need not retract his hands to push/strike his opponent at all. Though I doubt he could do it if you manage to get him on his back. But you never know. Systema stylists claim they can still generate power on their backs.

Now there’s the problem. He kept a lot of secrets. None of his students seem to be making any progress. From what I have observed and from what I learned in aikido and hapkido, I’m not entirely convinced the posture is necessary to do all the things that he does. I think it’s exaggerated and it may be he does it because that’s the way he was taught.

The posture I practice includes the following: Flattening the lower back, raising the spine without raising the shoulders, letting the perineum raise up, slight grasping of the toes, keeping the head straight. Flattening the lower back causes the spine to stretch like you are pulling it taut. Three teachers that I have studied from advocate this posture in martial arts as well as qi gong and rehab for injuries. I like the new perspective though. I am going to practice both to see if I can find for myself which is better.

Dirty Rat,

What posture are exactly are you referring to?

He's referring to the posture that resembles a question mark.

If the Tai Chi guy has power hunched over- he would be even more powerful if he could stand in a natural posture while doing any technique

The instructor I talked about claims to be of the Cheng, Man-Ching lineage. I was referring to his everyday posture and body structure. Him being hunched over is probably due to his age and slouching habits.

As far as how he looks when performing a taiji set, he looks like Cheng, Man-Ching. You can find clips of him on youtube.

When he talks about posture, he usually just tells his student to relax. Only once he mentioned anything about tucking in the tailbone.

As I said, he kept his secrets. I only learned when he's showing off and by paying attention to his actions and not his words.

Posture aside, there's a missing component that's needed to make his taiji work. A type of strength that he's not sharing and practices outside of class.

I once tried osotogari on him and I thought I had him. He was already leaning back to the point I thought I broke his posture enough for an effortless throw. But even in that awkward posture, he had enough strength to brace against that push (reminded me of an 'iron board' ki demo given by an elderly Japanese woman who practiced aikido). As soon as I gave it more juice, he "stayed ahead of the wave" and somehow move even closer to join centers and used slant flying to break my force at the root (my shoulder) & project me away, literally using my force against me.

I suggest trying Tim's ideas out. You'll probably have more success. As I said, I'm entirely convinced that its solely a posture thing that makes it work.

if your desire is power, as stated by the topic title, use the posture that gives you power.

try to kick, punch or shoot a takedown w/ your tailbone tucked like that, won't happen.

better yet next time you bust out that stance have someone put a 40 lbs dumbbell in each of your hands.

see how fast your spine naturally realigns.

Actually,

I can punch and kick very hard with my tailbone tucked. My balance is good but made even better. I am rooted and people find it hard to move me. When you add weight to me my tailbone "naturally" tucks and the same thing happened when I pushed my car out of the snow. Don't discount the tucked tailbone completely

Sometimes it's semantics. To clarify, I advocate relaxing the lower back, there is a slight release at the "ming men" point and the tailbone feels as if it drops slightly so the pelvis feels as if it's "floating." The crown of the head feels as if it's lifting away from the torso, so there is an overall lengthening of the spine.

Using force to pull the pelvis into a posterior tilt, resulting in "senile posture" is not recommended.

I see. We have been talking about the same thing the whole time. It definitely was semantics. Thanks for clarifying

I know a book writing cripple that is mentioned in Wolf Loenthal book "THERE ARE NO SECRETS". His and claim to fame is that he was a student of CMC.
Wolf mentiones that he used graet willfulness (not skill).
He teahes "relax, relax and ask why are you so hard?"
The entire time using force and will to resisit being pushed. He also does not pass reliable information on to his students. This is mostly because CMC did not speak English and this Kat knows not a word of Chinese.
Writing books being mentioned in books and studing with a well know stylist does not make your posture correct.
CMC was not slouched or a noodle.
Cant throw a 60 year old hunch back?
Come on
BOB

"Hunch back"...

You mean like Quasimodo? No not nearly that bad. Read the post again. His shoulders are just a bit hunched from age. Perhaps I should have used a different word.

None of CMC's american students are any good IMO.

If you want to meet this guy drop me an email. I'll introduce you to a guy I know who use to study with him. He'll tell you how to find the taiji instructor. He won't diappoint.

I don't know about Bob but I would like to meet him. Whats his name?

Jamie

I sent you an email yesterday. Hope its current. Good luck.

Thanks DirtyRat.
I received an email from you and also from Bernie.
I guess if the instructor is not clear on telling his name- that is very secretive.

Ahh, Bernie's no fun. No sense of humor. I was hoping he would show you around. Been talking to him all week long. No luck. The instructor's name is actually spelled Huang. James Huang from Taiwan. He's in Honolulu's chinatown. I'll see if I can pry more info.

No need to
it's not important

thanks

Jamie