There seems to be two philosophies out there on the position of the lumbar curve when standing. I practice B.K. Frantzis' basic standing method in which he says to gently tuck the tailbone under. I think Tim is a proponent of just letting the curve remain in its natural position. Anyone's thoughts on this would be appreciated!

I don't really think the answer is clear cut between one or the other. They are both good.

It depends in part on body type and yr goals.

I studied with Kumar and one of his senior students. To clarify, in the early stages the phrase "tuck" may be appropriate, as one actually needs to focus on contracting the muscles to get the cocyx in the right position. The goal however, achieved through standing practice, is to RELAX the lumbar region, allowing the cocyx to release into this position. While it may seem as if I am splitting hairs, there is a subtle, yet important difference, the relaxing and releasing method leaves the springiness in the area, tucking does not.
As to whether to position the cocyx in this relaxed straightened position or not, I agee with Bob as to goals and body type.

Thanks Bob and Walter for your comments. My goal is simply to "open the energy gates" as Frantzis puts it. I thought maybe the tucking was done to stretch the illopsoas (sic) muscles so that eventually, when relaxing, the lumbar region would be able to straighten which it can't if those psoas muscles are tight. From what I gather from his book, the abdomen and buttocks muscles should also be relaxed while standing. I struggle to do even this, and my practice so far has just been a conscious effort to maintain the posture and alignments with relaxation. Maybe I'm just too anal with all this - I don't plan to do anything with my arms until I get this simple posture down correctly. Any additional comments?

Take your time. It took me almost a year to get this part of my body to relax and release. Don't stop working on other things until you get this aspect right. If you are working using Kumar's methods, always do the entire outer dissolving process. One of his theories is that the body is like a hologram, and the effort you put in works in a cumulative, not necessarily a point specific fashion.

If you want a very good introduction to zhan zhuang, then I would strongly recommend purchasing a copy of 'The Way of Energy' by Master Lam Kam Chuen. It is very helpful if you are starting zhan zhuang. The book gives a great amont of information on correct structure, visualisations to use to help achieve the correct state of minds etc... The essence of standing practice is in one's use of the mind (yi nian).
The book does not deal with any advanced training, but focuses on the essentials, since without these one is heading for certain failiure.
While I have read several books on standing practice (and all of them I have found very useful), Master Lam's book discusses zhan zhuang training in the greatest depth.

This tuck is not just a " Kumar thing "

Some have described Hung I Hsiang's Pi Chuan method as an attempt to point the Tan Tien to the ceiling during the static holding of San Ti.

I would be interseted if Walter could give more specific direction and explaination in regards to-" RELAX the lumbar region, allowing the cocyx to release into this position"

More to the point how does one transcend from willfully- "contracting the muscles to get the cocyx in the right position"-into a state of release and relaxation?

Your description at best implies a contradiction of method.First "contract" to achieve ideal lumbar alignment then later achieve spinal alignment nirvana through " relaxation and release "

In the book 'Opening the Energy Gates'an illustartion is given with a framing square held up against a tucked under cocyx indicating a flat lumbar region.Apparently,or at least in the beginning one needs to "contract" in order to be able to have a framing square held up flat against the lumbar region.

How many students of IMA have sprained or strained soft tissue in attmpt to achieve this supposed ideal?Proponents of this method invariably neglect to tell their students-or do not themselves realize- is that ligaments once stretched, never again are able to reclaim their former tautness, potentially resulting in joint laxity problems.

In his book Kumar strongly implies that overstretched ligaments are able to regenerate to a state previous to being overstretched.This flies in the face of all medical and sport science knowledge.

How many Chen stylists in their convoluted efforts to "roll their Tan Tiens" suffer from ligamnets forever compromised.I know of more than a few.Actually I know of a couple that have had back surgery.And one just about everybody knows.

One can only when the infant and baby model is brought before our eyes by these "masters" as the ideal lower back model to be emulated.Will someone please explain to these instructors basic anatomical differences between adults and infants at the next $$$$$ retreat.

It only makes good sense to ask any instructor who is teaching this method about the health history of their own back before embarking on this path.If the question is honestly answered this practice and methodology proves to be at best- highly suspect and dubious-MO

Anyone who has ever done standing properly has experienced the process relaxing and releasing, although they may choose other words to describe it. Giving more detailed instructions to someone who doen't want to consider the simple meaning of those words would be like describing the taste of chocolate to someone who has never eaten choclate, ultimately a wasted effort.
I never stated that Kumar had a patent on standing or relaxing the lumbar region. His book and his practices offer it as part of the tradition he learned in China.
If you need me to explain how to release and relax CHL, I can't help you. It would probably be as difficult for you to comprehend as the ability to post in reponse to an opinion you don't agree without without sophmoric derision. Careful reading of my post, which was offered in response to a practice I have actually participated in and been taught and which Indiana Jeff introduced as something he was introduced to by Kumar, will show that I pointed out the phrase tuck is inaccurate, and that tucking is only helpful to illustrate an approximate description of the end result. The willful transcendance is also something that is part of any physical training regiment that takes one from a state of unfamiliarity with a physical practice or movement to a state of comprehension and ability to execute such a practice, there is nothing mystical about it, especially to anyone who has learned to tie their shoes.
If I could stretch my ligaments simply by relaxing, I guess I'd suffer ligament damage every time I sleep. Straining to achieve any alignment such as you attribute to Chen stylists is ultimately self-defeating, which is way relaxation into alignment is the preferred approach.
While I have learned much from one of Kumar's senior students that I feel has been of value to my progress towards a natural relaxed alignment, neither I or my teacher are fans of Kumar and his current methods. This does not mean that he has nothing of value to offer.
Here is another concept you may wish to ponder CHL, life is not black and white. People and teachers are not either perfect or totally flawed. And just becuase you don't agree with something, doesn't make it wrong. There is more to life and what it has to teach than is contained in your thinking, or mine. Try relaxing and realizing that concept.

Hey Walter,

Do you fight, compete or do anything practical with the martial arts?

Walter,

I have been familiar (as in very)with Kumars approach to the above subject for a very long time.Probably long before you studied with Kumar or his senior student.

I am not slamming Kumar.I take issue with his teaching on this subject and also his opinion of ligament structures.

Nowhere in my thread (as opposed to yours)did you read as to whether I am a fan of Kumars or not.

You write that in implementing "tucking" or rather your "approximate description of the end result" that one may also -" need to focus on contracting the muscles to get the cocyx in the right position".

You then write that "The goal however, achieved through standing practice, is to RELAX the lumbar region, allowing the cocyx to release into this position"

I simply asked you to distiguish between two seemingly different approaches-that is contract or release/relax.Your response-as in shoot the messenger-was to question my ability to "comprehend" Since there are more people than just myself reading this thread perhaps they may also benefit from a little "shading of the nuances" on your part.

What muscles contract or release to achieve "getting the cocyx in the right position"? Are not some muscles lenghtening as well?What do the spinal ligamnents do, contract or stretch to achieve this "right posistion"?

While you are at also explain why this lower lumbar alignment which you promote is in fact the "right position"?

You then present this red herring- "If I could stretch my ligaments simply by relaxing, I guess I'd suffer ligament damage every time I sleep"

As if IMA relaxation/practice is the same as sleeping.It also implies that a "tucked under" alignment is somehow natural-after all one ultimately needs to "relax and release" to achieve this alignment- right?

Irony of ironies is that most people who are suffering from back spasms would be the "poster child" for a framing square flat back.

Funny when I relax and release, that damn lumbar curve always seems to appear.

Perhaps I need to do a little more sleeping when practicing.But only of course after I do a little " outer dissolving "

Look forward to your answers.However I suspect you may have to post a 'hologram'-(ouch!!!)

Hey Meynard,
Is that an exhaustive list of what you consider practical with the martial arts?
And it sounds like a put up or shut up to me...is that the way you settle all your disagreements?
Good training,
Walter

Hey Walter,

I've never seen anyone who fights to tuck their butt in. I'm figuring that you must be inexperienced with actual martial arts to think that it's good to tuck the butt in. Or you may have fought in the past with your butt tucked in. If the latter is the case, how did you do? I just want to know where you are coming from.

CoolHandLuke,
What we have here, is a failure to communicate. I will gladly detail how I learned to relax and release.
For me to achieve the relaxed state necessary for my lower lumbar region to release I would stand in wuji with my feet about shoulder width apart, hands by my side. I would breathe in a circular fashion, with the breathe through the nose, as softly as possible inhaling and then exhaling with the inhalation coming as soon as the exhalation ended and vice versa.
After relaxing and getting this breathe to become second nature I would then try and let my weight drop into my feet as I consciuosly tried to release the tension from my body, with either the mental image of a fist slowly unclenching, or the image of ice melting to water, water evaporating to gas.

After about 10 minutes of just standing and trying to relax I would then use this process to go through the outer dissolving process, starting at the crown point of the head and then progressing slowly down the body, from level to level (center spot between the eyes, the occipital region, the filtrum area, the jaw, the point at the hollow of the throat,the shoulder area, continuing downward, if you are familiar then you can finish the list.)


At each level after focuisng and breathing as softly, evenly and for as long a breathe as possible I would mentallly drop whatever tension, feeling of strength, uneasiness or contraction to the next level, continuing this process until reaching the soles of the feet, and then after regular practice, the ground below them.
As I practiced in this manner, I felt the tension leave my muscles, and my weight settle into its natural frame.

As I stated in the post, I followed this process continued for regulary for over a year before I was able to stop trying to tuck the tailbone (a phrase I did not introduce into the thread) and I found that the lumbar region/cocyx/tailbone (I am not a docor , or overly familiar with anatomical phrases beyond the basic level, but I believe you know what I mean) started to release downward.

The most significant process occurred after a weekend seminar with Kumar on how to use the postures of tai chi as part of your standing process, feeling the release for the first time.
It was for me something that most likely was a cumulative result, and not because of the seminar. The work done that weekend probably just made me more attuned to the process.

It was not mystical or magical, but I felt the physical sensation of releasing, my lumbar region straightend. The alignment was verified by my teacher.

The use of the hologram image was Kumar's analogy to describe the idea that progress was not linear, and that because of the interconnectedness of the body, sometimes dissolving done in one area would result in a feeling of release in another. He also said that at higher levels it also implied that one could work on any region to effect the whole. I don't need holograms to explain my thoughts, just words and adequate space.

While I can not explain why this happened for me, and not for you, I can say it did happen for me. While you are correct that a flat back is a sign of pathology, and you may be right that Kumar's take on ligaments, if I am not misquoting you, is flawed, I have not experienced any back problems as a result. I have a greater control over that region than I did. Will it work for other people? I don't know. I was just trying to answer the question framed at the beginniing of the thread with what I knew, in a limited amount of space.
I can also say that when I apply this limited skill, I feel a stronger root, and I am also able to extend my arms a bit further without lifting my shoulders.
As to my defensive response, my only explanation (not excuse) is that the level of communication on the internet is limited by the medium. Perhaps if we had actually conversed face to face I may not have been quite so defensive, and there also may have been less misunderstanding and defensiveness on my part. Or, there may have been more.

I make no claims to mastery of the methods associated with tai chi, or ba gua, but I do consider myself a serious student. The bulk of my training time-wise has been in "external" arts prior to meeting Buddy, the senior student I mentioned above.

I am not retracting my statements about Kumar or what I have experienced. The experiences are not feats by any stretch of the imagination, but they have helped my training. The only reason I said senior student rather than identify the person by name is because unless someone tells me to quote them of cite them, I don't. I am fairly certain that Buddy would not be upset by my using his name, as I remain his student because I respect what he knows and how he teaches it.

In the interest of not monoplozing Tim's space, for this post I have enabled my email. If you want to discuss what I have written in further detail, feel free to email me. If you only want to deride me, lets not waste each other's time.
Good training,
Walter

This is difficult to explain.

I guess I know I am standing well when my body physically feels better(really good) than when I started, whether it is 20 minutes or 45 minutes, and I could comfortably stand longer if I like. In contrast, poor standing may for example leave me with an achy joint, a sore muscle, etc. that will soon go away.

It seems to be about proper alignment, which changes depending on how I move my arms for example. I find the proper alignment by moving around, trial and error, and finding relaxation in that position/posture.

For those chi-huggers out there I can feel various indications that my chi flows/builds/etc. better by adjusting my posture.

I apologize I can't understand and use the various terms others do and am not in touch as much with those terms and my own analysis. However, when I stand, I play with how much I tuck and slowly find the right position or posture that is right for me.

Each year I improve, slowly better and better. I think the best is to do what is more natural and not force anything too much.

Some people based on their body type can do some things for decades and not suffer, whereas others would. For example, in some asian countries the people squat a lot and their knee is built a bit different. My knee could never tolerate this even though I have seen both western and eastern MDs and those in TCM. So I never sit in full lotus or squat.

My best advice is to keep practicing, IMA is majority learned by yourself...

Bob

Bob,

Your approach makes good sense-MO

Walter,

Thanks for your response.However you still have not addressed the question of why one strives for this alignment in the first place.Or why you label this the "right posistion"

Personally from a martial art perspective I feel a "flat back" has momentary and dynamic value.For instance a blow to the kidney or lower lumbar region is far better tolerated when implementing this technique.

From a health standpoint I have also heard others make claims in regards to Ming Men-spelling?

From a bio mechanical standpoint perhaps it also enables a practitioner in some cases to achieve greater working distance-open/close at a very deep level?

Perhaps there is also some confusion and distortion- a result of the - "the vertebrae must be plumb errect" maxim?

I certainly make no claims to have the answers either.I would however approach this particular teaching with a very open mind-in other words do not simply take a teachers word on the value of it.

On "tucking" the tailbone

interesting thread here, and a good enquiry as to methods and reasons. The following is just my understanding and an attempt to answer "how" and "why" As with most of these things, the answer to the one points to the other.

Generally, the lower spine becomes compressed due to holding our weight up (it is well known that we are all about an inch taller having woken up). Few of us hold our weight in the most efficient manner however (this is basicaly why the requirements of good posture take so much work). So, this technique, whatever it is, must be about assuming good posture.

Firstly, when our spine compresses we often use our musculature in the back to hold it in this compressed state, and to maintain the bow without increasing (think of structure. Press down on a curve and the curve increases)Place your hands over the kidney area (find the proturberance from the pelvic gurdle at your side with your thumbs - wrap your fingers round to the back) The two ridges of musle you find here are often tense and indicated in lower back problems when held tight for long periods of time. What they are doing (as they are on the outside of the curve) is preventing the curve from increseing too much towards the inside of the body.

In turn, these muscles also work on the tailbone as to pull at their upper insertion point they must also pull at their lower insertion point. This further compresses the spine as the tailbone is working backwards (away from the body and its natural curve) and feeds force up the curve as a compression.

The result is a very tight and "stuck" closed lower back with very limited movement. So far the ligaments have not really featured. Whoever it was that said that ligaments do not recover fully is correct. Best estimate is 70% of previous strength and flexibility. The ligaments only get involoved, however, when the musculature holds the lower spine contracted for a length of time. Ligaments (like most body tissue) are vasoelastic. That is they change over time and pressure (given a force, they will change tominimise the force. The change is of structueral properties - stiffness, compliance etc.) In other words, after holding the back closed for a while, the ligaments adjust to the closed position. This unaturally tight ligamenture is unnatural.

So, we must act to releive the pressure on the lower spine. We do this by releasing the tension in the ridges of muscles mentioned before. This is done through posture of the rest (whole) of the body as much as concsiously "tucking" anything under. You can "tuck", but, as has been noted, this makes it easier to get part way there, but there becomes part of the problem to fully releasing (which is a relaxation thing not a conscious contraction thing). By acheiving this release, the muscles are no longer pulling the spine out of position and it settles back into place. It just so happens (though the mechanism explained above) that this means that the tailbone sinks round (it moves both downwards and underneath)

The talk of martial applications is intreresting. anyone pushing hands (or otherwise sparring harder) with a tight back can be attacked through this tight back. One can make it lock up more and further restrict the movment of the opponent. They may then either be pushed straight through this blockage, or, better, turned around it as an axis.

CHL, Bob, and RobT, excellent posts. You articulated some of the concepts I wanted to express in order to explain why one might pursue the relaxed lumbar spine, and asked the right follow up questions to expand on the concept. In essence, that the more space (or to put it from the converse, the less compression) in the spinal column, the greater a benefit to health.
As to martial application, if one is able to open the spine in such a fashion, one does have a better root. I won't explain why this is important martially as I believe those incvolved in the threard understand why this is important.

Also, there is a method of fa jing that relys upon the ability to compress and open the spine in order to create energy to be used offensively. By establishing the fine motor control that is needed to release the lumbar region, the next step, if I understand what I was taught correctly, is to open and close at will the spine, as well as other joints, through this fine motor control.
This goes back to why one shouldn't obsess over the lumbar region in standing, and should take a holistic approach. I left out part of the standing process. After one learns how to relax and sink into the aligned structure, the next step is to open back up, starting from the soles of the feet and progressing up through the ankle, the calves, the backs of the knees, the thighs the hip area etc etc. By open up I mean lengthening the muscle fiber so that the compression of the soft tissue that resulted from the outer dissolving process described above is reversed and expansion replaces it. If you were to watch someone do this, they would actually rise up and appear taller. This process is also necessary in order to position the hands and still maintain aligment.
This ability to lengthen inward (the compression or relaxation of the soft tissue) and then lengthen outward (the opening or rising up) creates that fine motor skill I mentioned used in certain types of fa jing. This is what I am working on gradually. There are certain nei gung exercises that aid this process. (CHL, spinal stretch, bend the bow, marriage of heaven and earth.)
Any way, thats my take on it. Cool Hand Luke thank you for drawing me back into the discussion, great posts from you, Bob, and Rob t. Tim, thanks for having the board here.
Respectfully,
Walter

speaking of 'respect'....

Walter, I respectfully ask, are you posting answers to your own questions (under different names)?

The same question to you, Coolhandluke.

I can find out the truth on my own... I'm just
wondering if you'll admit to it.

Shane

I have a better idea..go ahead and check. I've been asked this before and denied it...guess thats not enough for some people.

"The ligaments only get involoved, however, when the musculature holds the lower spine contracted for a length of time. "

I do not know about anybody else but I was not refering to "sway back".I would agree however that the musculature and soft tissue could attempt to hold the lower spine in a state of unecessary flexion.

I was refering to a technique that taught by some instructors places the spinal ligaments and discs under unecessary stress at the S1-L4 junctures.

Apparently some have never been in a class where the instructor corrects what they percieve to be excessive lumbar curve.The correction/teaching-incorrectly termed tucking- as practiced by some is basically an attempt to force the natural lumbar curve into a state of unnatural spinal flexion.

The cocyx is really not the issue-MO.Furthermore please show me the individual who can "straighten" the cocyx.

Note the area of natural spinal curve that the 'framing square'is supposed to lay flat against.

http://www.palmbeachspine.com/illustrations.htm

Excessive or forced Spinal flexion at the region of approx S1-L4 has been associated with increased injury risk to the discs as well as other soft tissue including the ligaments.

Again please explain the benefit/value of attempting to flex the lumbar spine and achieve that 'framing square' flat back?