CHL,
I am not familiar with the framing square approach to establish whether or not the alignment is correct and admit that I may have misused the term cocyx. Although I have the energy Gates book, and have read it, in my training I rely on personal obsrvations and feed back from my instructor as to whether or not anything is happening inside my body, and if this complies with what I was being taught.
I am not trying to obfuscate but clarify. I have posted everything I know on the subject that I thought was germane, and admit that I can add nothing further of value. I enjoyed the discussion though and remain open minded to anything you have to add or critique.
Good training,
Walter

Okay, any martial artist who is interested in the fighting applications of martial arts would not tuck his butt in. That is it!

This thread should die! It makes want to be violent.

Meynard,
Dude take a chill. This simple conversation makes you upset? As the Bard said, "There are more things on Heaven and Earth than are dream'pt about in your philosophy."
Although I am reticent to engage in these written tit-for-tats, my name has been brought up so I will chime in, although briefly. First of all my take on this is that the sacrum/lumbar does not so much tuck as relax and straighten. It is a training method and not fighting principle. This compression and expansion of the spine (and it need not be just in the lumbar) is the source of a tremendous amount of power. Just look at Baji or Tongbei. However it should be noted that it is an obvious and perhaps exaggerated training method. When I issue (in particular) short power there may be no noticable movement of the spine. This comes to my previous question about power being initiated in the dantian. I think of the dantian as being the inguinal fold, midriff, and the lumbar spine along with everything in between. This all comes under the heading (if I may borrow a page from the Neijia list) of-It Has To Be Shown. Not that I can do anything special, far from it. I'm a duffer.
I have a GREAT deal of respect for Tim (he's actually been there and done that) and his ideas. I disagree with him on this business of the spine. I also don't think BJJ can in any way be considered an internal art. A soft art, yes. IMO neijia arts must use power generated from the dantian (see previous definition) and must ALWAYS use pengjin. Without pengjin it's not internal. Period. From what I've seen of BJJ (just NHB events) they don't use peng.
This does not mean that everything that I do uses pengjin either. I study Pentjak Silat Serak which is not, IMO, internal but a soft art. But I feel a certain advantage to my Silat brothers because of my internal training. Plus it makes me very healthy and strong.
I think much of this issue stems from the fact that Tim (and his cohort) doesn't buy into the Qi paradigm. Fair enough, let's agree to disagree and not fall to the level of petty bickering and questioning of skills. Whichever paradigm you might adhere to, the end result should be the same: good health, clarity of mind, and sufficient self defense skills.
I probably won't take the time to answer a great deal of questions because I hate all this typing. Besides Walter is a better arguer than I (right, counseler?)

Buddy

hey Buddy,

First of all I'm not upset...I just feel violent! Kind of like when I'm doing cutting practice with my sword or shooting my .45 Colt through a paper silhoutte or hitting a heavy bag until my knuckles bleed. You know what I mean? Well, maybe not.

Basically, unless there's a practical and demonstrable application to all this nonsense about butt tucking I think the theoretician should stay in the lab or the library and keep doing research. You said a training method. A training method for what application, exactly? If not for fighting then for what? If it is for fighting why don't you show me a fighter who tucks his butt in.

Oh yeah, you don't seem to know anything about BJJ, so just don't say anything about it.

One more thing...who are you supposed to be? Buddy who?

"Okay, any martial artist who is interested in the fighting applications of martial arts would not tuck his butt in."

At last! The true trait of the real martial artist has been revealed!
(I should use this quote somewhere )

Maynard - in your pushing hands practice (I assume you do some) try to notice just how often when your lower back tenses, you are easily uprooted and moved. If the back tenses asymetricaly (as it does in this case), the spine is moved out of alignment. It is not rocket science.

I have no knowledge of BK, any boxes drawn on any diagrams, or of sticking out or holding in the bottom (when did that get into it anyway?)

CHL - fine, the debate was up to the point I joined, about a potentialy dangerous forcing of the spine. I thought that had been established? I quite agree about the lumbar vertebra and sacro-iliac by the way.

"Apparently some have never been in a class where the instructor corrects what they percieve to be excessive lumbar curve.The correction/teaching-incorrectly termed tucking- as practiced by some is basically an attempt to force the natural lumbar curve into a state of unnatural spinal flexion."

you are quite correct - I have never been in a class where the teacher makes such an error. I have been taught to relax the body fully (sung) and what effect that has on the skeletal system (including the spine) while standing in a good posture (the weight is held properly along the bones) happens naturally. As explicated above, for the majority of people, this will mean a loosening in the lower back - typical manifested as a lengthening and curving under of the coxyx, and an expanding and _slight_ straightening of the lower lumbar spine. Look at most people sitting in a chair slouching. This puts stress on the lumbar area. When they stand, this area "flattens" - it does not become flat, just resumes a more natural curve than the one into which it was forced by incorrect posture and tenseness.

RT

Try to pay attention to detail and spell Meynard's name correctly.

Apologies to the individual concerned

One thing though - I thought this thread was dealing with an issue of posture and the internal arts. So I spell one letter wrong in a name - it's called a typo. What difference does it make to the content to what is there? None. What comment have you made on the content, what addition?

robT

I get where you are coming from now.

Meynard,

I agree with this statement in part;

""Okay, any martial artist who is interested in the fighting applications of martial arts would not tuck his butt in."

Where I disagree is that in fact many good fighters do appear to tuck under-not actually what is happening-as a storing mechanismn prior to any given release.

In a fighting context this is done under spontaneous and ballistic conditions-feedforward if you will.

It is my belief that martial artists through the generations have attempted to recreate what are positive traits under spontaneous and ballistic circumstances in feedback type training circumstances-i.e stance and form training,ect.

The potential danger in that is that soft tissues can behave very differently under ballistic and sponatneous conditions than under controlled and feedback type scenarios.In other words a spontaneous storing of energy-tucking or whatever term is used-is potentially less of an injury risk than an agressive tucking in a non ballistic feedback mode of training.

Needless to say I am sure there are many practitioners and instructors who understand the potential dangers of forcing the lower lumbar region.And some instructors who get bad raps because their students are overeager in implementing this technique-as in more is better.Just MO'S

While others may not agree, this thread, especially the longer it runs, has been very helpful. Thanks to all substantive contributors, especially robT and CHL, as many of their posts have clarifeid my thinking either by forcing me to clearly state my understanding of this practice, or their posts have stated either new perspectives on things I have been taught, clarified these concepts, and reminded me of the interrelationship between concepts. I won't cut and paste or re-iterate, but the last 4 substantive posts and robTs first post especially. (key words: ballistic, storing, training to replicate spontaneous applications...misunderstanding )
Walter

hey CHL,

Could you possibly post a picture of a martial artist with his butt tucked in while engaged in a fight.

I want to consider what you are saying. I think it would help if you can point to some evidence.

When the $%*&# is behind you.

Is it correct to consider "butt-tucking" out of context of other "good" posture characteristics (like "hollow the chest", "round the spine", "drop the shoulders", "flex the knees" etc)?

I'm under impression that with all these parameters in place the lumbar straightening would occur almost naturally (with little or no effort)

While I was practicing this morning I actually focused on this part of my lower back to see if relaxing it into the posture described by robT, the posture I was taught to aim for while standing, made a difference. For me anyways, I felt a noticeably stronger root when focusing on this aspect. I am fairly critical in my observations. This may not be true for everyone, but my root was better.
Btw, when practicing the fundamentals in question, I always focus on the "good" posture characteristics you mentioned Anvar. I generally don't bother with such prolonged effort on a detail of my posture unless someone whose judgment I rely upon suggests the importance of it firstly, and secondly if I feel it is worth the effort.
ALL of my training is geared towards martial application. While I may derive secondary benefits from this, I believe that even these benefits would vanish if I did not focus on the martial aspect.

Okay ladies,

I had a friend who owned a speed boat.
He'd sit behind the wheel belted into his seat-
turning the wheel right and left with his captains cap blowing in the breeze. He determined that he was able to go much faster if he avoided his urge to 'hunch' his back and lean into the turns. He said he had much more control of the vessel if he held the wheel with only his thumb pad, middle finger and ring finger. He was thrilled with his progress.

I suggested he take the boat to a body of water and try out his abilities. He waved me off and said putting the boat in water was irrelevant to how he felt revving the engine, strapping in and turning that steering wheel in his front yard.

After about 5 years of practicing his speed racing in his yard, he entered a race and was killed during a wreck. I miss seeing that pretender in his front yard winners circle. He was so happy thinking he knew something about driving a race boat.

Walter, is it really possible to 'feel your root' without someone trying to steal your root? I mean, I was convinced I had the deepest, most solid root I could have until somebody to pushed me.

Bob #2

Meynard,

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047/Lastarza.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047/walcott3.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047/charles2.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047/walcott2.jpg

CHL,

The links don't seem to be working.

Anvar,

Your right.I just did a copy and paste into the address line and it worked.

Bob, you make a good point. Despite my previous training, the new school I'm at now won't let me push until they have finished corrcting the form, which should be soon. When I get to push, I'll let you know, but point well taken.
If it counts for anything, when I trained full time, I always sparred 2-3 a week in a non-co-operative setting, and used to have a couple of more seasoned fighters come in and trounce me fairly regularly. Not only did it keep my feet on the ground, but fighting those closer to my level always seemed eassier afterwards. I only offer this to illustrate that not only do I agree with you, but I try to practice in a realistic fashion.

CHL,

I don't see any evidence there. Cool boxing pictures though. Keep trying.