A number of fellows are well known on the 'net for teaching "internal" body work exercises as distinct from any particular martial technique, for example: Akuzawa Minoru, Dan Harden and Mike Sigman. I've seen questions about these guys come up from time to time, so I want to make sure to be clear about what this thread is not -- I'm not asking if they have "the real," nor do I want to incite anyone to gossip about these gentlemen, &c.

What I'm really interested in finding out is if Tim believes there to be a martial advantage to developing the sorts of body skills that they purport to cultivate, and what exactly those advantages might be. In particular, I'd be especially interested to hear about the differences and similarities between using fa jin to brake someone's frame before throwing him vs the (quite similar seeming to me) relaxed explosion a high-level wrestler might use during a "snap down."

I've had experiences with a number of famous ICMA that give me some ideas about this, but I know that Tim has had the opportunity to look much deeper into the matter.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Jack,

I'm not familiar with the methods the gentlemen you referenced are teaching.

Is there film of them teaching, or better yet, sparring or fighting?

Sadly, there's no fight footage of any of these guys. The only one to claim a fight record (so far as I know) is Akuzawa (Ark for short), who started off as a xingyi guy, fought under san da rules, and later picked up some kind of koryu jujutus-based exercise regime. He's also the one with the most interesting videos.

A two-part demo reel with Ark explaining some movement principles and bouncing around his students. The quality of his movement, especially in the second clip, reminds me of Su Dong-Chen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbvipmVYGzA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJcq-8cvCpc

A couple more of Ark explaining posture and hitting a shield:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4GOEdKyee4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4GOEdKyee4

... my understanding is that these mechanics are representative of what all these fellows try to impart.

Thanks again.

EDIT: O, and here's an example exercise, which reminds me of the dao yin I've seen practiced alongside Zhaobao taijiquan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDoLKfxPXy4

Most of these ima guys are full of it. Thats the attitude i have when approaching it. Even when i came to this site for the first time i was skeptical. That is until i read the info further and actually saw real footage and demonstrations.

Tim is one of the rare few "IMartists" who can actually demonstrate live technique, and actually explain things in a realistic light.


I watched the first two vids, the stuff he's doing looks like it would be pretty difficult to pull off during a real fight, i.e. the way he gets to the back, he uses a duck under reversal, easily countered by simply spinning out.

It doesnt look like he has had any formal training either, look at his feet when hes in horse stance. Totally wrong. Id say he's around mid level practitioner, definitely not a teacher.

Again, I'd really rather not have this turn into a discussion of the skills of any one of these guys. My question has more to do with the general idea of "body skill training" and its relationship to actually fighting.

Ark -- and so far as I know the others -- doesn't purport to teach martial technique, just exercises that promote good body mechanics. The relationship of this idea to "internal" training is interesting to me for a couple of reasons:

1. I actually have picked up useful "body skills" (ugh, that term) that help my BJJ from yoga, which doesn't make any martial claims at all. This leads me to believe there are supplemental practices -- in addition to, say, weights, rope skipping, &c -- that are useful.

2. I've had my hands on some marquee name taijiquan stylists who have developed remarkable attributes -- relaxed movement, full body power, excellent base, and an impressive level of explosiveness -- but who did not strike me as if they would be particularly effective in a fight. My suspicion is that their training methods helped them develop attributes that arrise naturally in highly skilled athletes (Marcelo Garcia has them in spades, for instance) without actually learning -- in the sense of drilling, sparring and fighting -- enough martial technique to make good use of those attributes.

The only "internal" stylists I've met who could really fight have mixed the physical development stuff -- from jibengong to dao yin -- with fairly typical progressive resistance drilling, sparring and fighting. That this would be the case seems obvious to me, but I remain curious about the benefits of supplementary material along IMA/koryu/yoga lines, and how those benefits relate back to actually fighting.

Tim, more than anyone else of whom I'm aware, has the experience and perspective to speak clearly on this subject, thus my question here.

If you want an answer from Tim, perhaps you should ask him about the various training methods and conditioning methods taught in bagua, xingyi, and taiji, stuff he actually knows. A specific question will get you a better answer.

There is also a book by Tim on neijia that i really want to read, where you can most likely find answers as to the effectiveness of "body skills".

If you want to develop "body skills" you will most likely have to do what everyone else does, cardio work, and some type of resistance training.

Many people think that "internal martial arts" dont do rigorous physical "external" conditioning. they do. well, the ones that can fight do.

"I actually have picked up useful "body skills" (ugh, that term) that help my BJJ from yoga, which doesn't make any martial claims at all. This leads me to believe there are supplemental practices -- in addition to, say, weights, rope skipping, &c -- that are useful. "

There are many. Every kind of traditional training properly organized and practiced was designed to do exactly what you found, improve the practitioners physical attributes in a specific manner. No amount of solo training will ever teach anyone how to fight, this was never the intended purpose of solo practice. Fighting can only be learned by fighting, or at least by close approximations.

It's interesting that perhaps the vast majority of martial arts practitioners don't realize the specific "martial" exercises, "kata" or "forms" they practice are no more useful for developing martial skills in general than correctly practiced yoga or "nei gong" or many other body work systems.

The fact that you asked the question as you did tells me you are not one of the majority, and you already know the answer Jack.

Yeah jack,

Stop showing off. lol. jk