Tim,
you say you are working on a book about power training. I just wondered how power of the internal kind can be measured.

I can shake a pole, push people a few feet and all, but when it comes to a real shocking type force I find myself at a loss as how to measure my progress. Even the odd short jin strike I have tried on sparring partners only gives me vauge clues as to the degree of power I have, and I do not feel right about really going for it.

So do you have any good suggestions for measuring
Short jin on inanimate objects.

Thanks as always

Wind walker

Wind Walker,
That's a tough one. We often have our partners hold a thick pad and stand in a strong stance, then shock or strike them straight through their center of mass. The result of the force (how far they fly, how much force they feel passing through their body...) should give you a fairly good indication of your ability to issue force. Obviously, this can't be done on a training partner "for real" without protective padding.

Wind Walker

FYI In Park Bok Nams books it states that his instructor could place his hand on a watermelon and using the short 'shocking' strike ( not removing the hand) could liquify the interior. Note, Korean watermelons are round, not oval like ours. Another mention, was of placing a cake of tofu in a bucket of water and slapping the surface of the water, this would cause the tofu to explode. You might experiment with these.

An idea, you might try taking a gallon plastic jug, such as a milk jug. Fill it absolutely full and tightly capped. Hit it and see if you can make it rupture without knocking it backwards or otherwise moving it.

My teacher was able to crack an egg on the side of a pan with one hand! AND NEVER BROKE THE YOKE.

Mark,

That sounds absolutely absurd. I'd like to see it done.

Don't laugh, tofu shrapnel can be quite destructive.

Imagine the surprise on the faces of multiple attackers... as they surround you and you deftly unwrap a block of tofu, place it in a bucket of water... then SMACK BOOOOOOOM....
"run away, run away he's a Tofu Palm Master!"
"aaaahhhhh! This shirt is ruined!"
"Great Budha! My eyes are so stingy...oh the horror"

Meynard

The water jug test is done to demonstrate effects of increased velocity of handgun bullets. Shot with a 'standard' velocity bullet (800-900 feet per second), the jug will stay in place and water will run out of the entry and exit holes. Shot with a bullet in the 1300-1500 fps range, the more rapidly moving bullet displaces the water faster than the elasticy of the container can adjust. The jug ruptures and water flys everywhere. I don't know if a human could duplicate this but it's an interresting idea.

Asian tofu is made in blocks the size of bricks and it is stored in water. (Always red plastic buckets for some reason) I have purchased it as such and even helped my mother-in-law to make tofu. A very rapid slap to the surface of the water could cause a displacement of the water making the tofu 'explode', while a slower strike would only make a big splash.

Any Doctor, nurse, or emergency room technician can confirm that a tramatic injury can cause a horrible appearing bruise with no significant injury, conversely, a serious trauma causing internal injury may display no external signs. It's from how the injury causing force was applied.

Knowing this, I can see how a very highly skilled person might be able to perform the tofu and mellon demonstrations.

Go buy an Impax shield that measures lb/sq. in. Ever notice, when watching those power demonstrations, that the demonstrator takes a deep stance, psyches himself up and does a couple of slow motion strikes before doing the break. Are you really looking for the one-strike kill?

Seems to me you have many ways to go about testing and training power. A quick, relaxed, well-aimed strike that lands is much better than the brick-breaker that misses - and has more power. Personally, I use strikes as entries and ground finishes rather than blow-for-blow (hurts too much). I suppose a test like the ones mentioned could be OK if you could find a way to do them in a realistic way such as a "ground & pound" strike finish.

Have you ever seen any of the demonstrators knock an opponent out with their strikes. I have a friend who knocked a would-be thief out with an cross-elbow. He was out before he hit the ground. As far as I know my friend has never "tested" his power yet he has done a lot of bagwork, free-sparring and ring fighting and was confident his strike had power from fight experience. I've never heard of champion heavyweight boxers trying anything like the aforementioned tests but you can bet they hit hard. If you're free-sparring with protective gear and your strikes land you should be getting a good idea whether they are powerful or not from your opponents responses. I do a lot of bagwork for my round kicks and I can definitely feel when I right on the money and kicking powerfully or if I'm just not getting it. Body Mechanics > Relax > Speed > Power

Good Training

I'd rather hit a bag or a pad. It seems to work for boxers and kickboxers. I'll save the tofu for dinner and the watermelon for dessert.

Wind Walker

If elsewhere you hear something interresting on this topic please pass it along. Some of the bars in Korea had coin operated meters to test your punching force, but again this was for a boxing or karate type of blow, not the shocking type you refered to.

Some years ago I read of a karate school that tried some type of meter. The 'strongest' was the senior of the three black belts who was also the smallest person. The second 'strongest' was the most junior member, a white belt of only three months training, but who was also the biggest guy.

Mark,

I found some round watermelons at the local grocery yesterday. I was tempted to liquify the inside, but I thought it be more fun to slice it up and eat it like a regular human. When I liquify watermelons I usually use a blender and make a smoothy out of it.

Hi Mark,
I'll let you know if I find out anything interesting.

Meynard,
This does bring to question whether or not
the average boxers or kick boxers punch is the same as an internal type shock force. I have been led to believe that they are for the most part quite different. Most boxing or kick boxing type punches seem to have the centre/waist turning away from the punch. The more internal shocking type seems to have the centre turning towards the punch (mostly). The former seems more akin to long jin and the later short.

What do you think?

Different martial arts may use different types of body mechanics, but force is force. The amount of force entering a target is determined by the speed of the contacting weapon and the duration of the application of force (or "impulse," the rate at which a strike changes momentum. "Short Jing" equates to a strike that is in contact with the target for a reatively short amount of time. "Long Jing" describes strikes which are in contact with the target for a greater length of time). Still, all force is the result of a transference of momentum.
Strikes may be labelled as 'internal' or 'external,' but both can be measured the same way. Striking the Impax shield that Eric mentioned would tell you exactly how much force you were generating, whatever your body mechanics. The more esoteric ways of power testing are all valid, but it should be simpler (and way less messy) to strike a bag or padded partner.

I dunno if I completely agree with the force-is-force theory. After all a strike can be made up of force as in mass x acceleration or it can be made up as momentum as in mass x velocity.
Another factor is how much spiraling energy is generated (Is torque in Newtons?) another is the surface area of the weapon being used. A fingertip is much more penetrative than a fist for example.

I know I'm being a picky arse but I'd really love for some serious science whizz to pick up this thread instead of an armchair wanna-be like myself.

Then again maybe I'm still recovering from WindWalkers nasty bagua slap.

Interesting.

Tim,
Thanks again for your response

I got hold of a pad and worked with a partner.
It still seems a bit subjective though. I'll try and find an Impax shield and have a go with that.

I could not help but notice that some people seem to train to make their striking sufaces go faster, while others train to make the force channeled through the striking surface move faster. It just seemed like such a different approach that I imagined the forces to be somehow
different. Still you can't dodge Newton (or maybe you have to I'm not sure).

Any old road thanks for your explanation of long and short jings. It explains why sometimes I "lightly touch" partners during sparring (not meaning to do damage) and they feel it as a hard strike. I was under the impression that the length of the jing was linked with how far one "threw" the force out(with intent). Maybe it's just another factor. But I can see how if you wish a person to 'fly' you would stay in contact for longer.

This melon thing has me intrigued though. I have heard of this method of testing power and it seems like one would be trying to execute a completely different kind of strike to that of a boxer. Unless I completely misunderstand boxing.
I have never trained in boxing but the boxers I've talked to say that can tell if their power is good if their arms feel heavy. With the kind of mechanics and degree of relaxation I've been taught, the lighter my motions feel the more effect the seem to have on training partners.

Heres a question Tim. Is a jab in boxing similar to short jing?

Hey Dummy Man,
long time no see (I think). Hope your well.

It's true what you say about the finger. If you squeeze force into a tight spot or funnel it, it sure seems alot harder. I suppose thats the difference between a battering ram and a whip.

Spirals do make a difference also. But I think like Tim sez, They speed up the force. Mind you with spirals I can effect a persons body (also as Tim sez) from point blank range. So I guess you have a point about the ecceleration velocity thingy. Any how see you soon, After I get rid of this dam Flu!


Later


P.S.I forgot to ask. What is an impax sheild? and where do I get one?

Hi Mr Walker & Mr Dummy,

I'm no physics professor but...

I dunno if I completely agree with the force-is-force theory. After all a
strike can be made up of force as in mass x acceleration or it can be made
up as momentum as in mass x velocity.

Force is force. PERIOD. As you state; force= mass x acceleration(i.e., the rate of change in velocity). Momentum= mass x velocity. This has to do with "a body in motion tends to remain in motion unless..." So more momentum would translate into more force but it is not a type of force in and of itself.

Another factor is how much spiraling energy is generated (Is torque in
Newtons?) another is the surface area of the weapon being used. A
fingertip is much more penetrative than a fist for example.

This is very complex as torque is made up of the combination of multiple forces causing the rotation.

Surface area will determine the damage done but the force may be equal. Take an axe & sledge hammer of equal size, weight, etc. Swung with the same force, the axe will penetrate while the sledge will smash.

As for watermelons, I prefer the Juiceman II as It really seems to make my eye brows more bushy.


Capt Ahab

Excuse me, I've got a tuna to chase

Wind Walker,
I'd say that a sharp boxing jab is an example of short jing

The Juice Man rocks.

From what I remember, another physics concept that comes into play is impact, which is force divided by time. So the less amount of time for the same force yields a greater impact.

So force is force, but impact is impact.

Aargh Matey,

Yes, this would apparently explain why the "shocking", pulse force of a fa jing seems so much more powerful than a regular strike/punch.

Capt

A fellow on another site mentioned this:

Hold up a sheet of newspaper with two fingers, let go and punch a hole through it with the same hand. He was half joking. I tried it and if poking with one or two fingers its easy to tear the paper. Part of the 'trick' is to hit in the middle or just below so the paper is held against the blow by its own interia.