Meynard,

I do not know what you might consider 'tucking' but the above link shows fighters both absorbing and discharging when implementing vaying degrees of 'tuck'.A varying quality due to the visual limitation of the 'snapshot'.

For instance in the second link-Walcott3.jpg- Marciano using a uppercut/beng derivative could be considered to be in a state of 'tuck.'

'Tucking'as some have pointed out is entwined with a hollow/concave thoracic region.

The below link is not exctly a fight.However legend has it that this man could fight.As a matter of reference would you consider this now deceased martial artist to be in some state of 'tucking'.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mabrown88/hung_2.jpg

CHL,

The overweight man on the left has really bad posture and it does look like he has his butt tucked in which probably explains the bad posture. Or he may have a naturally angle forward pelvic tilt. Who knows... One thing is for sure, he has bad posture and overweight, not a sterling example of the health benefits of IMA.

Boxers don't train by tucking their butt in. The boxing picture you mentioned shows a shovel hook to the floating ribs. Note how upright he is.

Looks like the legendary Hung I Hsiang to me!

you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Hey Walter,

We obviously see things from totally different perspectives. Let's leave it at that. Galileo said that you can't teach anyone anything, you can only help them discover for themselves. I consider myself a novice and I'm trying to consider what you say. I just don't buy it. I'll listen to my teachers who have a far greater ability and knowledge than you will ever have. I've been trained by the best, neither of them advocate any butt tucking.

One day we will know who is right and who is flat on their back.

Good luck in your training.

By the way, Meynard, the overweight man with bad posture is the same one responsible for teaching Luo De Xiu and Hsu Hong Chi (Tim's teachers) their bad postures.

Luo has excellent posture. It doesn't look like that. Maybe the guy was too old and it was a bad picture. Just because he looks like that at an advance age doesn't mean I have to start imitating the way he looks. Why don't you show me a picture of the man when he was young.

Just to clarify; I've seen Luo on more than a few occasions spend a considerable amount of time with later students of Hong Yi Xiang's trying to correct their alignment. Apparently some of the students that studied with Master Hong in his later years developed the bad habit of collapsing their chest and slumping their lower back. For comparison, look at the BBC produced tape on Hong Yi Xiang produced in the early 80's. Look closely, especially at the alignment of Luo walking the circle and Hong's son demonstrating the Xing Yi forms. Notice the lifted chests and natural alignment of the spine.

Buddy,
I have a question. How did you determine from watching tv that grapplers don't use the power of their dan tian or have "peng jing?" It's been my experience that internal power has to be felt to be understood.

Tim,
I must admit it is only via that medium that I have any exposure to BJJ. How, for instance, do you manage to use dantian power or maintain a (as the neijia list would term it) "ground path" while in the guard position? In my limited reading on the subject it seems these issues are not mentioned. Are you able to do it because of your previous training or has it been specifically dealt with by your grappling teachers? It may be indeed that it is too difficult to describe in writing but as my grappling experience is limited to my brief study of Silat I'm afraid that I don't have the background to get it.

Buddy

Just thought I'd share this recent post from another board. It seems appropriate. And to avoid any misunderstanding, I submit for the record that I have as much to learn from this as anyone. I'd also bet that Tim has already seen this.

"Illustrated Explanations To Tai ji quan of The Chen Family" (China, 1902) Ten Rules for the Tai ji student, by Chen Pingsan.

1.Learn with respect. With no respect towards the teachers and friends, with no respect to the body and heart, how can you study an art?

2.The student will not act from violence. Violence will always lead to things. It does not make a difference if the violence is physical or verbal. Walk on the road of self-respect and take this attitude to heart.

3.The student is never satisfied or proud of himself. Always remember no one is higher than heaven. Pride is leading to lack of will to study, while it does not matter if you are alone or in the heart of a crowd, one can always learn.

4.The student should adapt the attitude of notice of the small details, when the notice of small details is missing the performance would not be complete and will lead to dissatisfaction. When the small details will be perfect, then your spirit and body will be one with the movement and will lead you to all the goods.

5.Learn from books as well. The books can come before the exercises or after them, but they are always useful.

6.The Yin and Yang are leading to harmony. In the body, in the world, in the universe there are Yin and Yang, which comes naturally to harmony. It is not the teacher who causes harmony, but the Yin and Yang in your own body. Remember this and you will hold the world.

7.The benefits in learning are not only to your body your ambition should be to grow the circle of influence. In our time, learning the martial arts was similar to improving the society.

8.Your time and knowledge are valuable. Treat your time and knowledge as a precious thing you borrowed from someone and eventually you must give it back. You need to take advantage of this treasure before you give it back.

9.The student will not take advantage of his status. Your status means responsibility.

10.Correct mistakes. While learning you may see mistakes in a book, or by the teacher or friends. You should correct them. The teacher can be mistaken, the book can be mistaken, and the friends can be mistaken.

And forgive me for adding a brief thought, the young fight for glory, the old fight to survive.

Good training,
Walter

An old man sleeps with his conscience at night,

A young man sleeps with his dreams.

I've never gone to bed with an ugly woman,
but I've woken up with some horrid dogs.

When practicing 'wu chi' and later, the 'three circle post' the 'tuck' occured naturally with no deliberate effort. It has not occured in any other part of my training. When well relaxed in some stances the tuck is the position which my body settles in to.

However, I have no application or 'use' for the 'tuck', at least at this time. It does seem to tie in with the spinal wave/dragon back movement.

Bob#2
Your perception that you don't go to bed with ugly woman is because you are perpetually drunk. Please quit teaching drunken Kung Fu for the good of both of us.

Hi Buddy,
I may have a little different body use on the mat than most others because of my previous training, but all of the expert grapplers (I'm talking about mainly BJJ fighters, but I have to include some of the Sambo grapplers I've learned from as well as an Olympic wrestler that came to visit my school on one occasion) I've worked with spend a great deal of time talking about correct alignment while on the ground (including while on your back). The concepts of using the power of the whole body and the center of power being in the lower belly and hips are the same in these arts as the IMA. At higher levels, breath control and cultivating the ability to 'listen' to the opponent's force as well as how to 'stick and follow' are emphasized. Maintining a "ground path" is, in general easier when groundfighting (more of you is already on the ground, the surface area of your base is naturally greater most of the time).

Meynard,

I wasnt going to post this but the more I thought
about it, the more I realized it needs to be said.
I find it extremely ironic and more than a bit
unseemly that after making a comment like "my teachers have a far greater ability and knowledge than you will ever have."(paraphrased)which btw
sounds like the chants of a school boy bragging to his friends that his dad can beat another kid's dad.(which may or may not be true) Anyway, the point being that you are
so arrogant and unfamiliar with your own lineage as to malign
some guy with bad posture (who would definitely have given all you could handle)and dont even recognize him as your Hsing I Great-Grandfather. It really
doesnt reflect on you in a flattering way.

Glad that's off my chest!

Good Training,
Jason B Connelly

Hey Jason,

I study Xing Yi which is based off more than one lineage with an emphasis on the Shanxi flavor. As such I don't bother with any lineages. People like to make other people think that they are the real deal by emphasizing their lineages and talking about some esoteric internal BS that they can't prove. I don't bother with all of that. Why should I? I like to deal with the realities of the present. I study with teachers that stand on their own merit not their lineages.

Everyone wants to think that they are following some pure lineage to make themselves feel superior regardless of their mediocre skills.

Are you telling me that I was wrong for saying that the man had bad posture? Would you consider that good posture? Would you consider such a man healthy? Sure he could've probably kicked my ass, but I still would never allowed myself to look like that. Where's the malice in stating the obvious from a terrible picture of a great master. That picture should be burned. I looked up pictures of a young Hung I Hsiang and he didn't look like that. The person who took that picture should be flogged!

Show me skills not a damned pedigree and endless theorizing! If that line of thinking is arrogant then so be it.

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting on Tim's board, but i've been enjoying reading it the last few days.

What advice have you got for people with the opposite of tuck? I see lots of people with hyperlordosis and their bums sticking out.

Of course I tell them to relax, imagine their head rising, their hips sinking, and other images, but it just seems painfully slow work sometimes.

Incidentally when I say I see these people, and I tell them to relax they are usually in my class. They are not poor defenseless strangers with bad posture who I accost in the street.

thanks

Ed

Hey Ed,
How are you? I hope all is well (Ed is an old friend of mine, we trained together in Taiwan. Ed is very good at alot of martial arts, so feel free to ask him questions as well). I hear you have been fighting in the ring, how's it all going?

Good to see you on the Board, I hope you have a chance to post often.

Tim

Hi Tim,
I think I have to train my sense of humour and the capacity to absorb jokes to post here regularly!

Thanks or the compliment too, I think it's more generous than accurate though.

I'm doing well, though a couple of years ago I got my knee badly dislocated, which stopped me training (and walking) for a while. By the time it was stable enough to fight on I'd kind of lost the taste for tournaments. But whenever I go to one testosterone kicks in and I start thinking 'I could have him, maybe just one more time...'

cheers

Ed