Internalenthusiast wrote:

"some teachers teach reverse breathing, and some do not. But again when I push a car I do it automatically. I have to have air in me to have power, and could even think (as two excellent teachers I've come across teach) of *approaching* the point of "pushing" with an inhale. But at the point of exertion, a bit of air escapes, in a way that would be identical to "reverse breathing"

I have a differnent view than yours concerning the practice of reverse breathing.

reverse breathing is practiced by expanding the abdomen upon the release of breath and contracting it at the intake. The purpose being to alegedly clear the path for your internal energy to sink to the dan tian more effortlessly by releasing the tension in the area as you exhale and then to close the diaphram thereby capturing breath in the dan tian during inhale.

However I have not found any refrence suggesting that force be appled during the inhalation of breath. The "reverse" as I understand it applies to the method of breathing not to the reverse of the breaths application in combat.

Check it out - if you get slammed in the throat during exhale, it may not disrupt your breathing, however if you were to be struck during inhalation, even lightly, you stand a good chance of coughing,gagging,loss of breath - all of which could cost you the fight. I mention this because I've found that fighters tend to get hit more often as they themselves are already on the attack.

In tai chi form and applications we breath in when striking and breath out when yielding. To me this is very natural and effective. I don't know that much about what other arts do, but I'd be interested.

Interesting, I could be incorrect. Does anyone else have any experience with this?

Hi, Sean, and thanks for your comment.

I'm not sure if I made myself clear or not in what I wrote.

I'd concur with your first point: my basic understanding of reverse breathing is the same as yours: that the abdomen expands on exhalation (what ever the energetic reasons).

Re: energy. My experience and what I was taught is that in "natural" breathing, the chi goes up the back and down the front, in inhale and exhale, respectively. And that in reverse breathing, it goes up the back and down the front on exhale and inhale, respectively. But this has also to to with the mind, perhaps, and the difference is subtle. When I was circulating the orbit, for a long time I thought it went up the back on exhale and down the front on inhale. Then I realized I was automatically subtly doing reverse breathing to help this process along! In any case it's not something you think about much during drills or sparring, I'd think.

So, yes, I think reverse breathing refers as you say to the reversal of what is the normal abdominal movement during "natural" respiration.

One of the things I was really trying to say was:
say if you push a car...if you have no air inside, you have no pneumatic pressure in the body core, so do not have a lot of power. Try it, push a car with no "air in your belly." (That is after squeezing yourself of all air.) And at the same time if you push a car while actively exhaling by pulling in the belly, you (at least in my experience) will also lose power.
But (at least for me) if I keep air in the belly, and push, and some naturally escapes, the belly is doing an intuitive "reverse breathing exhale". This is at least my experience.

I'm not a big weight lifter, but from memories of my teenage years it was the same thing. If I had air in my belly (forgive the silly phrase) I had more power doing, say a bench press. And I'd do an automatic "reverse exhale" at the point of effort. Conversely, while lifting a weight from the floor, up to my chest, in preparation for doing "presses", I'd inhale, which helped to lift the weight.

Perhaps I'm weird, but this is what seems to happen naturally to me.

The other thing I was saying tangentially, which you picked up on, was being taught to inhale before the moment of contact. I realize people teach different things, and I think (after pondering this for a long time and asking several masters) that it all may be a matter of slightly different timing all trying to accomplish the same thing. I read someplace that some boxers exhale on the punch and some inhale.
I suspect that the same end result is tried for, with two different techniques. The result being that you have air in you at point of impact, but your belly is not flaccid. A lot of hard styles, it is my impression, teach an exhale on the strike, and it's sometimes taught as a "reverse breathing" exhale. (But of course if you've already exhaled everything at the point of impact, you've got less power.) My main tai chi teacher, and another excellent one I know, teach the opposite: you "fill out" the form with an inhale as it opens/expands. (Even, say in certain closings, like Pi Pa, I was paradoxically taught to do an inhale on the close, to add compression, or internally "fill out" the body at point of impact. In which case, I guess the body is externally closing, but internally opening, and the sum of these two processes leads to power. Closing but filling out the body at the point of impact.) But the "automatic" thing that is not stated overtly is that at impact, an exhale does happen. To return to the car analogy: if I try to push the car while actively inhaling, I also have no power.

I, like Dragonprawn, was taught to exhale while yielding/sinking, and inhale into attack. I realize not all people are taught the same thing. Now, I must admit, I also have had, in honesty, the same thought that you mentioned. Inhaling on the attack, in theory leaves you open to being inhaling while being counterpunched during your attack. I have been pondering this for years. The things I would say in mitigation of this are two: (a) after a certain amount of form and nei gong, your inhales and filling out don't have quite the same vulnerability as before training, at least in the abdomen--I'd hate to guess about the throat. And (b) really, when you are moving, you don't think about breathing, and, at least as I was taught, the end result seems to be that the body itself breathes (kind of like an accordion) as it opens and closes, folds and unfolds. In this respect, what I was taught: exhale on sink/yield/retreat, and inhale on rise/open, seems to happen naturally. The body just does it. (In addition, sometimes I think a kind of syncopation develops between breathing and movement, slightly. It doesn't take that long for air to "drop in" and fill you, when you are moving fast.)

So this, in more detail was what I was trying to express. So many talented people have devised methods to try to be efficient, given what they were trying to do, and words, even when one is face to face, are a difficult medium to communicate what we all care about.

BTW I think Tim (thanks Tim) made a really good point about not using tension to tuck, or do anything else. I'm nowhere near the level that Tim is, to make an understatement, but I know enough to appreciate his comment, and believe in it. Locking the body in any way, as far as I can see, only inhibits response, and the flow of force. And I think that nobody good teaches you to use true tension. It's just that different people teach sometimes contradictory things in an effort to lead the student to a natural, effective use of the body. Some may say stretch the tendons, and some may say "sung". I don't think you can have one without the other, but they seem to be paradoxically opposite. It's part of the reason I wondered if everyone was using the word "tuck" in the same way. Maybe the paradoxes are all part of trying to deliberately learn a natural way.

I've had friends who were professional singers. Some were taught to "reverse" exhale when singing a note, and some taught not to. Each method had it's strong points, near as I could tell. The truth is probably each teacher was trying to teach support, in a way that the singer should finally forget about, in the process of singing naturally and producing a good, supported tone.

Anyway, take what I say with a grain of salt, or more. I think these issues are very interesting, and I've thought a lot about them, but I have no definitive answers, I'm sure. Thanks again for your comment.

Best wishes.

PS. I'd be very interested to hear what others have to say about training and breath.

Thanks.

The problem with $64,000 questions is that even if alot of people throw in their 2c worth, its pretty obvious (even to non-mathematicians) that the sums won't match up. Even more to the point, after a while it becomes apparent that their aren't alot of coins in circulation anyway, just the same ones being used over and over and over....

They get worn and dirty and eventually tossed away, until some new 'worthy' stoops down and picks them up, gives em a bit of spit and polish, and 'presto' they've rediscovered some ancient treasure.

Then they want to boast to the rest of us poor unfortunates how lucky or skillful they are to have this great fortune, or the 'kind' and 'generous' ones want to share their bounty.

Lets face it if all you've got is two cents, then you aint rich and if you want to share it around, its not going to go far and do much good.

Hmm - and I thought the purpose of a discussion board was to have discussions - preferably about something related to the board. So this topic qualifies.

Chris - no offense, but your post added nothing useful to the conversation. I for one value the ideas and experiences of others and I'm not afraid to change the way I do something if it makes sense.

I asked a question, got an answer, and now I'm experimenting with the idea in practice.

Sean,

little kids think twenty cents is worth alot, are easily influenced by others and are liable to change their minds frequently.

Chris,

Stay away from my kids, pervert.

Keeping an open mind and trying something out does not make one fickle or naive. You just never know for sure until you try.

I guess you can't teach old dogs to stop licking their own nuts either.

Bob #2,

He's all yours, obviously if I can lick my own nuts, then I don't have to get my kicks by bullying/molesting little kids.

Although this thread has gone to hell in a handbasket it has provided me with a new found appreciation for the contributions of Bob #2. I do wonder, however, what has become of Bob #1.

To get us back on track I will say that I was taught that reverse breathing is harmful. I don't remember all the reasons, all I know is I'm not going to do it. Regular DEEP breathing works well for me in tai chi, nei kung, and meditation.

As far as getting hit in the throat during your attack, try and avoid this! Seriously! Look, you should be yeilding first. If your yield is successful then counterattack while the opponent is compromised. If they are not compromised enough to prevent them from hitting you while you are attacking, then you probably have not yielded enough. Often it is necessary to take quite a few correctly executed retreating steps with yielding in order to find the right opening to go on the offensive.

Hence, it is safe to breath in when attacking, and as I've learned, more effective. Try hitting a heavy bag with correct allignment breathing out. Then do it breathing in. You be the judge.

Also, when you spar against someone in tai chi class they probably should not be striking you in your throat. In a real fight someone may try it, but your yielding should work even better than it does on your classmates.

I'm Bob, don't know if I'm Bob#1, or the #1 Bob?!? I'll just let popular vote decide...

I agree a sudden burst of power can naturally result in the belly out during a fast exhale. I agree that maintaining air in the body helps under large loads on the body - a common practice in heavy weight lifting.

Studied reverse breathing a bit. I have found that when I am good at regular breathing that reverse breathing can happen easily for me when required.

However, I have found that natural breathing is safest for the average and above average person in any/all MA. Too many people get hurt with reverse breathing for many reasons. If one is interested in fighting, real fighting, natural breathing is good enough. Try reverse breathing as soon as you start getting gassed out.

My motto is if it takes a master to be able to apply it, it's not good for the regular dude who just wants to fight. And i

Yes. For clarity: I wasn't recommending reverse breathing. Only trying to say that if some air naturally escapes at impact, the belly seems to involuntarily do something like reverse breathing. I was probably trying to say way too many things at once, which can be a fault of mine.

Respects...

Tim, if you have a moment at some point...do you teach coordination of breath/form in Tai Chi Chuan; and if so could you describe the coordination? (E.g., inhale or exhale on attack, yield, etc.) I know some teachers teach a coordination, and some leave it alone. Thanks.

do this breathing method while your lifting wieghts....yo ucan force the shen goosebump rushes if you breathe slowly and time it with the exercises

Internalenthusiast,

When teaching beginners, I discuss the mechanics of natural breathing separately from the basic movements and form. I don't require beginners to match the inhalations and exhalations with the movements. Once students understand the movements and have found the "rhythm" of the form, I point out the coordination of breath (but by this stage, most students will be doing it naturally already).

Hi,
There was an instructor that I had about two years ago that taught regular(inhale, abdomen expands,etc..)when you do an inward movement i.e, rollback and breathe out when you do an outward one, ward off; I found that training in this way became very confusing during real sparring (not two person drills), especially when sparring someone who is good at seeing where your breath is at as well as changing rythms in an instant, whether from long range or short range. One thing that I found impractical about this breathing method in particular was that you inhale through the nose and exhale from the mouth which creates a real "come and git it" kind of approach to sparring as you can see it a mile away. Another instructor that I train with stressed the idea of not matching the breath with movement at all (not forcefully denying any natural patterns that might accumulate) which I found to be much more practical for regular sparring as it is not as predictable and I don't get that "oh, I have to wait until I can exhale to strike" kind of anxious mindset. Perhaps it's my lack of skill as I have not been around so long. Dunno. Any thoughts? Thanks. Josh

thanks, tim.

i think i was also wondering what exactly the coordination was that you used. for example, some teachers i've seen teach inhale on rollback and out on press. the main teacher i've had, and at least one other well known one, teach exhale on rollback and inhale on press, for example-- (with a natural escape of air on the point of impact).

best...

tim, sorry, i should have clarified further:

one way: inhale on yield (store) exhale on execute.

the other way: exhale on yield (melt), inhale on execute (so you are full), but an exhale happens naturally on impact (point of discharge).

i realize this may be a complex question; but i'd like to know how you view things. feel free to detail your thinking as much as you wish.

with thanks...

I just want to know why Tim's never mentioned 'melting' in class??

shane, you are right, it is a strange word to use. i was trying to use it to indicate the opposite of full/solid. but it does sound a bit silly, kinda like the wicked witch from oz or something...

in any case my previous post was just trying to outline two different relationships of breath to movement i'd come across. and i've been curious if there is a specific coordination that Tim taught, and if so, what the thinking was behind it.

i just realized my last paragraph of that post could sound a bit strange, too. i meant to be indicating an avid curiousity for as much as tim might want to share! sorry for any awkwardness in the post--no silliness or offence meant.

best...

Internalenthusiast,

As a general rule, we exhale when exerting force (either forward or rearward) and when bending the torso forward. We inhale when arching backward.

Actually, some Taijiquan teachers in China talk about the concept of "melting" when yielding to force.

thanks, tim. much appreciated. and glad to know "melting" isn't just a concept from oz.

Tim,
Do you use reverse breathing in your practices?

No.