well this is a power training question, i dont' really think its qi gong, but, whadda ya gonna do.
i want to put my hands down on the ground from standing and raise up into a hand stand, however it seems like my back just isn't strong enuf for this, dose any one have any isometric suggestions. i wanna do it with as little momentem as possable (none would be great) so i got a feeling isometrics is the way to go on this one.

Chris,
Two exercises that will help (neither require momentum).

Kneeling Back Arch: Kneel down onto both knees with your knees wider than your hips (you are "standing" on your knees, not sitting on your heels). The tops of your feet are flat on the mat, big toes touching. Lift your chest, thrust your pelvis forward and look upward. With your arms crossed in front of your chest, slowly back arch until the top of your head touches the ground behind you (your rear end must not touch your heels). Don't rest your head on the ground, touch it lightly. If you can't make a full back arch, go as far as you can. Hold the position and then slowly come back up. Two or three reps (holding the back arch position as long as possible, 10 seconds would be excellent) is enough.

Lifted Knees to Chest: This exercise is much more difficult than it appears. Sit on your heels (in the "seiza" position) with your knees together and the tops of your feet flat on the mat. Put your palms on the mat (fingers pointing forward) outside your knees. Lean forward, touching your belly to the tops of your thighs. Now, keeping the contact between the belly and thighs, lift your hips upward (so that your knees and feet leave the ground) and balance on your hands. Your hips will be a little higher than your head, your knees almost touching your chest, your heels still touching your rear. Hold the position as long as possible. If you can't lift off the mat at all (most people can't when they first start), just press with the palms and try to lift the hips as strongly as you can, holding for 10 seconds or so. When you can press into the lifted position and hold for 20 or 30 seconds, you will have the strength to press into a handstand from the kneeling position in slow motion (without jumping or thrusting with the legs).

Tim, have you come across any of the hard skill/gong training in Xing Yi such as 'scorpion covers its tail' ('walking' handstand) and how do feel this sort of training should, or perhaps should not be emphasised at various skill levels?

Chris,
When I practiced Xing Yi Quan in Taiwan we did about an hour of conditioning exercises every session. We did all kind of push ups (regular, on the fingers, knuckles, wide, scooping and one handed). We did alot of ab work, alot of squats, lines of jumping kicks and some basic tumbling. We also did more technical exercises and bag work. The conditioning was fast paced and continuous. New students did as much as they could from the first day of training. After the conditioning, we practiced forms, standing, then techniques, then we sparred. This was the format of most classes.

My teacher's idea was that you have to be tough and in good shape to fight; hence the conditoining. Forms are to teach your body how to move correctly and generate power.

I agree with my teacher that conditioning should begin the first day of training. All the technical skill in the world is useless unless you have the power to apply it and the endurance to create the opportunity.

howlong where your xing yi class's Tim? They must have been gruling! Also I was wondering about the stance holding, how long can you work up to, and how long should you work up to? If I do 5 min of san ti, my legs and wrists and shoulders and every thing hurt!!

I'm still kinda pissed about that whole exercise thing, I Just hoped it would all be magic!

About two and a half hours of actual class time.

Five minutes of San Ti on each side is already a good minimum. Ten minutes on each side is very good. I hear about people standing for an hour, but a half hour (fifteen minutes a side) should be enough if you have the time. You need to increase the time very slowly.

YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO SLOW TIME?!!!!???? COOL.

Just like to add that not all the styles/ists which/who initially put emphasis on relaxation and breathing are applying wishful thinking, and if you haven't done it, maybe shouldn't underestimate the level of physical and mental endurance,discipline and toughness that is required to stick with it, when done correctly.

Granted though there are downsides to these methods, as i believe there is to the conditioning approach.

Don't necessarily believe either is superior to the other, simply a matter of taste and accessibilty, but both are going to invovle alot of pain and heartache. Also today most seem to mix and match both approaches.

While i basically follow the relaxation and breathing approach (surprise, surprise), the 'royal court' is an important part of my training... no nubian princes but.

Mr. Chris

On San Ti. If you research enough you'll find that some taught that 40 minutes per side was optimum, others said a minimum of 40 minutes per side (this is something you work up to)

If you have not done any or little of this type of training, you will find that your movements have improved greatly even at the 15 minutes per side level. It will begin to open your eyes.

re: "underestimate the level of physical and mental endurance"....

Yep, like Tim says.... just because it's a 'soft' art doesn't mean it's 'easy'.

Chris,
Why do you assume that conditioning exercises cannot be practiced with "relaxation and breathing?"

The Royal Court can be practiced in as "internal" a manner as anything else, no?

Tim, i don't assume that (Matt Furey's advice on how to practice it certainly has an 'internal' flavour to it), but there are plenty who do.

The depth of difference between the 'approaches' as i have experienced as a generalisation, seems to be related to the degree of relaxation encouraged (using different breathing methods to help facilitate this process) and the goals to which it is ultimately directed, in this case developement of the dan tien.

The trouble is as soon as you use the word dan tien alot of people assume you're a chi hugger, like if you talk about ab conditioning, push ups, good shape and toughness to fight etc others may assume 'knucklehead'.

Such is life.

That makes us chi hugging knuckleheads.

Hey i kinnda like that

"Powerwalking"

Begin in the push up position.

Now, take tiny steps backwards with your feet. One foot at a time.

***Don't move your hands.

Go back as far as you can without falling flat on your face.

Hold as long as you can.

Engage your abs at all times, navel to spine.

You should investigate Pilates.