I used to do the full set every day for a long period. The benefits of doing the nei gong set for people who don't exercise regularly, as a warm up or warm down after a workout, and as low resistance exercise for those with injuries is obvious. What's not obvious is how these exercises relate to acquiring power in striking and wrestling. Mike Tyson never did nei gong and he used to bit like a monster. I'd like to know specifically how xyng has benefitted those involved in more strenuous martial arts. It is often stated that internal and external are both needed for power generation but you can gain good power with just external. So why do nei gong at all?

I'm not sure if I am better off than others who have never engaged in nei gong practice. So any specific power generation benefits from nei gong training?

Timothy,

What did you expect to get from practicing the Nei Gong exercises?

Tim,
Your book stated, "If one does not train power than his martial arts will be empty." That's a paraphrase. I remember first reading this and instantly agreeing. Now when I read it I have trouble linking nei gong exercises to that statement.


I expected to have advantages in power when doing techniques on my training partners.

Do the exercises serve mainly as a light way of conditioning the body as a path to doing harder exercise?

A typical solo workout goes like this for me.

I warm up with nei gong for a few minutes until I've gone through all the major joints. Then I mve on to harder co dittoing exercises like belt snapping, polymetrics, and body weight exercises.

Then I warm down with nei gong exercises. Beyond a warm up and a warm down I'm having trouble seeing other benefits to doing nei gong regularly. In the hsing I nei gong book it says you don't need to do every exercise every day only the ones that are needed for a particular activity. I guess being warmed up allows for not sustaining injury too.

Tim,
Another post you wrote said that xing yi nei gong is of great benefit especially to those that study hsing I. Hsing I isn't striking or grappling. In it's pure form all hsing I is is a bunch of stylized forms that have the potential for people to learn striking and grappling.

If a a wrestler came to you and asked how would nei gong benefit his skill set specifically what would you tell him? If a striker asked you a similar question what would you tell him?

I've asked others similar questions and I only hear answers like this: "My posture is great."
"I haven't come down with a major cold in years."
"I have tons more energy."
"I am able to practice martial arts into my old age."

These types of answers are too broad, were the result of many other factors besides nei gong(even without nei gong), and solely focus on health benefits. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of how these exercises help develop power and if one needs to keep doing them religiously till death.

I don't mind posting to myself.

Timothy,

Are you serious, or are you some form of quotationally transfixed troll? If you've performed nei gong exercises to the extent you claim, you wouldn't be questioning the benefit. Unless, of course, you've had absolutely no training to go with them, in which case you do not understand that:

A. The nei gong exercises specific to a given style contain within them motions that are martial in nature. In this regard, they are somewhat akin to the styles themselves. Your comments about HYQ being a bunch of stylized forms illustrates that you have not had anyone show you how the forms relate to actual fighting. You might consider hiring Tim for some instruction...

B. The exercises reinforce (through repetition and eventually, muscle memory) proper alignment and movement. True power comes from proper alignment and concentrated movement. This needs to be practiced until it is second nature. If you have to think about form, posture, alignment, power, and reflexive action in a real fight, you are going to get your ass kicked.

Next time you perform your exercises (if you really do), "listen" to your body. Feel how your hips rotate with certain moves; observe the relationship in movement between legs, hips, and hands. Feel your balance, feel the "pull" when you are on center / off center during movement. Search for the combination of range with balance and strength. Visualize how this will pertain to a strike, set up, or take down. If after having done this you still do not understand the benefit, you might consider a new hobby.

Funjohn,

I'm glad you enjoy my posts. Stay tuned for even more quotes in the future.

If the short answer is that the nei gong exercises build proper alignment and concentrated movement why spend hours and years doing them? Why not instead spend a few minutes squatting with a kettlebell since that would build alignment and power much faster? The competitors of the strong man competitions have more alignment and concentrated movement than all the hsing I people combined...and I'm willing to bet most of them don't know anything about hsing yi nei gong.

So we're pretty much at square one. Is nei gong the most effective way to build the attributes you described? Or do they build other attributes that we haven't put our fingers on yet?

According to Brian Kennedy there is virtually NO evidence as to how martial arts was trained in China back in the day. I'm willing to bet that men going to war did much harder conditioning exercises than nei gong. We don't really know how important nei gong was to their training regiment if at all. Perhaps nei gong is a by product of the fact that guns making hand to hand combat secondary similar to forms becoming the meat of training. Perhaps nei gong is the flashy dashy dancing version of hard power building exercises like using kettlebells.

It was states that Wong Ji Wu lived to a hundred and did these exercises every day. The book didn't say that he killed hundreds in challenge matches, crush skulls, or competed. So while it may be seen that he benefitted healthwise it is not shown whether or not he developed martial power and used it. I'm just going by the facts that I was presented.
I have never studied hsing I before but have studied ba gua and other martial arts. A form is a form whether or not you are pretending to be a tiger, walking around in a circle, or doing the five elements. Do you study hsing I with Tim?

Why bother to ask the questions? You have figured everything out on your own. You and your kettle ball will be a fearsome duo as you transport yourselves back in time to crush the skulls of flashy dancing Chinese warriors engaged in harder conditioning exercises. They won't even know what hit 'em...

Funjohn,

If you can't handle a rebuttal of your points than why join a conversation? I'm using Tim's book as the only evidence I have of Wang Ji Wu's benefits from years of doing nei gong. If you think that nei gong develops structure I'm just saying there are faster ways.

Like I said, you have it all figured out. However, on the off chance you wish to invest some personal collateral searching for evidence (either supporting or disproving your position), go to a good school - one that combines NG, forms, and heavy non-cooperative sparring. Only after you've been taught and tested will you be able to determine if there is benefit.

I'm outta here...

If I'm ever in Southern California I would be glad to visit Tim's school.

Timothy,

The Chinese traditionally divide different types of training into different categories.

Exercises that focus on various types of breathing exercises, usually for "health" are commonly called "qi gong" (breath skills).

Exercises primarily designed to condition the body for severe activity, or that focus mainly on strength and cardio, usually geared toward martial attributes are commonly called "wai gong" (external skills).

Exercises that focus primarily on using the intent to gain control over physical movements and processes, usually geared toward developing the attributes necessary for a particular "style" of martial arts (yet may be geared toward health building as well) are commonly referred to as "nei gong" (internal skills).

There is, of course, an overlap of the main points of all types of training, and it is often difficult to make a clear demarcation between them (since all types of exercises will include breathing, a focus of attention and movement).

The exercises in the Xingyi Neigong set are of the third category, as they are designed to build up one's physicality and increase and improve one's conscious control over balance, movement and rhythm as specifically required by Xingyiquan. They also include exercises of a more general nature designed to build up general physical preparedness (applicable to any activity) as well as overall health.
Practice of the set will not, however, develop any kind of mystical power.

You seem to have some unrealistic or unclear ideas about what practice of the Neigong set is for.

For example, you stated "Mike Tyson never did nei gong and he used to hit like a monster."

You asked "So why do nei gong at all?"

You say you practice Baguazhang. Mike Tyson never practiced Baguazhang either, now I ask you "So why do Baguazhang at all?"

Apples and oranges.

If your goal is to learn to box, you'll need to go to a boxing gym and take boxing lessons.

In reality though, Mike Tyson did do supplementary calisthenics, including push ups, balance and flexibility exercises, drills designed to improve his rhythm, control his breath and improve his focus (sound familiar?). If Cus D'Amato spoke Chinese, he just may have called all this supplementary training "Nei Gong."

That was awesome. Thanks, Tim.

Nei gong develops attributes that are particular to a style by using breathe and conscious control of the body during specific movements. That was my paraphrase of your information. Any movement then can be a nei gong exercise.

Just as an example if I wanted to get better at shuai jiao I'd do the sc throwing forms as a specific nei gong to get better at sc take down. Does that sound right?

Right, the principles of Nei Gong can be adapted and applied to any art, and all complete arts have some type of training that could be considered "Nei Gong."

This is in reference to what you said about the principle of nei gong being applicable to any art. The people who first introduced nei gong to me talked about nei gong as a set activity meaning you do the exercises as is in order for it to be considered nei gong. The only variations that were mentioned were doing them in avoided stance and slower for more strength. Your view of it seems more adaptable and pokes a hole in the belief that Set A is good for health, Set B for strength, Set C for sexual prowess, for example. The set itself was the major factor and not the underlying principle you mentioned.


Did your tcma teachers impart this view of nei gong onto you or did you form this conclusion on your own through experimentation and through translation of Chinese dicuments that others, who couldn't read Chinese, wouldn't have benefitted? You're the first person I've heard say this.

Most of my teachers explained exercise methods in terms of the categories I mentioned above, and the differences between their emphasis based on principles.

Tim,
I know that you said that Bagua and Boxing were "apples and oranges" but do you think the practise of Chinese type Neigong exercises (as 'supplementary calisthenics')would be useful to a younger martial artist who is training for MMA competition?
In the school where you now teach, do you teach BJJ without need to refer to your Chinese arts, or are there any neigong exercises that you feel are a useful addition to the class and give your athletes something that they may not get from more common calisthenics?

I wouldnt worry about nei gong for bjj. Just spar and practice bjj, that should be enough. Its hard enough as it is.

double post sry

Someone in the boxing club told me that as a child labourer emptying beet off the train carriage, Jack Dempsey used to stand on top of the unstable pile of beets while picking and throwing them for the good part of the day, and consequently developed his balance and crouching style. So by your definition this is 'nei gong' cross with a bit of wai gong?

I prefer "Why Gong" where you ask why it works instead of actually practicing it. Most effective against those who are most knowledgeable and more experienced then you are.

Since I started studying a standing wrestling art I've realized that "nei gong" doesn't exist atleast not in the way it is shown in the so called internal arts. There aren't multiPle sets of exercises, almost done completely separate from everything else, to develop better body mechanics or what have you. You practice moves that bring your body through the same motion the actual throw would. Then you do the throw cooperatively. Then you spar. Could these solo forms be LOOSELY considered nei gong? Maybe. But they develop specifIc body mechanics for specific moves that are applied the same way as the form. They aren't a set of 16 extra exercises to develop "hsing i rhythm". I think these exercises were meant to be done mildly while concentrating more on the other stuff unless you're in it just for health. To be sold as a traditional way to develop power is a bit general and misleading.

When these and others like them are looked at from a health point of view they make more sense which probably explains why no one can specifically point to martial purposes of hsing I nei gong. If they imprOve your hsing I, as stated, then the next logical question would be, "What exactly did it improve?". Striking power, grapping, etc? Or did they just make you feel manlier while doing the hsing I hand forms?