• Archive through August 12, 2004 August 13 - 01:09 am [20]

I hate to throw fuel on the fire, but a 60/40 or even 70/30 stance can be used chasing an opponent in fast retreat. I base this on many years of wing chun practice. I am not saying it is an easy task, but it can be done. I have seen a few really skilled artists use it quite effectively. I personally will not claim to have mastered it.

The point I am trying to make... the chasing footwork in Hsing I and Wing Chun have some similiarities. There is alot of misconception in chasing footwork. If you are going to chase down your opponent more than 5 feet... then yes 60/40 is not appropriate. If you are close range and closing the gap, then yes... 60/40 will work.

Ehhh.... what ever works and keeps the brain housing unit in tact!

How do you even measure 60/40 or 70/30?

In a fight your weight constantly shifts back and forth.

Meynard, its simply a matter of practicing a technique enough to know it inside and out and developing the ability to feel bodyweight shift even when the shift is as small as the one made by lifting your arm a few inches.

Most people who are serious students of martial arts can simply "feel" if they are performing the technique properly and if their balance is correct. If you practice a technique often with a 60/40 balance then a 70/30 balance with feel quite different.

Sure, when you're sparring things move very quickly but the human brain is the fastest, most powerful computer in the world. With practice it becomes easy to sense how much weight is on each foot even while performing a technique during sparring.

The only processor in the world that can truly perform two or more thing at once is the human brain so you can do all these at once:

Dodge an in coming blow.
Perform your technique.
Decide what technique to follow up with.
Feel your balance and make corrections while the technique is in motion.
Wonder if any girls are watching you fight and wonder if they are impressed at your skill. (though this might not actually be helpful when fighting) Think about what the next attack your opponent will be doing by watching his eyes or solar plexus.

(Not necessarily in that order )

Please read my comments on keeping pseudo expert opinions to a minimum. Martial arts nerdery does not count for anything except a good laugh. It is also waste space and for those seeking correct information, it may misguide. Please train more and speak less.

In what way were my comments pseudo expert? If they really are false then Meynard could you provide some facts to disprove them?

I think many people on this message board would agree with me. So if you agree with me, please post. If you don't agree with me, please post why.

"why"

said the dodo,

"the best way to explain is to do it."

I refuse to explain anything online.

Mont,
I agree that you are a pseudo expert. But so am I so most of your posts make me feel better about myself because "at least I didn't say THAT".

I hope you can save some of your lawn care cash and come out to ShenWu to visit. You're either an incredibly talented fighter or in dire need of a wake up call. Either way, I look forward to meeting you and figuring out which it is.

Shane

Lol, now this is more like it! But seriously, folks...

B.C., I think you may be thinking of the karate "cat stance". If your cousins did shorinryu (the most common okinawan style) then they probably didn't have sanchin (though some schools later adopted it). The sanchin dachi has feet placed shoulder width, then the lead food placed about one footlength forward. From there, follow instructions for San Ti and you have it. Correct sanchin is exactly like what I read of San Ti, right down to tucking chin, sinking elbows, rounding shoulders, squeezing knees, etc. Commonly taught pidgeon-toed to show instructors one is ground-gripping, this is not necessary as long as the proper feel is there. Sanchin kata is considered moving zen and great emphasis is placed on its practice by okinawan practitioners much like San Ti by Hsing-yi boxers, and is derived from southern chinese systems such as white crane and hakka mantis.

Sleepy, isn't the stance you mention the same as what is taught in Jook Lum, with NO weight on the front foot? As taught to us, it was used in conjuntion with a covering or attacking move of the front leg (hence no weight), usually to intercept an opponent who is beginning to move towards you (though it could be used to chase, especially if used to sweep your opponent to keep him from moving away too quickly). BTW, I apologize for the preceding MA nerdery.

Meynard,
You are right about the weight constantly shifting... how would you weigh 60/40 etc.

Its simple... if your opponent comes straight in and you dodge to his side, then one of your legs is going to bare most of your body weight, i.e. 60/40 or 70/30.

something like that I think.

Hey Kenneth,
Yes... but, the one thing I have learned about the NO weight on the front leg... it is not correct. There is always weight on the front leg somewhat while in motion, its just the laws of physics. If you move your front leg forward and it touches the ground some weight is needed on the ground to grab so you can pull your rear leg forward, even if you push off with the back leg.

However, if your moving to the side etc. it is possible to use the wing chun sideling stance and have all the weight on the rear supporting leg.

The stance I was referring to earlier to chase an opponent is the Hsing I chicken stepping. I dont know if you seen it... very quick footwork and the weight distributes 60/40, 70/30 although some say 100/0 like Taichi. I like 70/30.

The rationale I was given by a WC proponent behind the no-weight front was to keep from losing balance if swept, which I find unrealistic because you can still lose balance, and who just stands there during a fight anyway. I was wondering if the "chicken step" was something like that, and yes, at some point during any step, one's weight distribution will go through the entire range anyhow. Sleepy, did you learn the chicken step strictly as a Hsing-yi method, or was there something similiar in your hakka boxing, because that is how I learned it.

don't you dweebettes realize a leg will have some weight in it regardless of how much you commit in to that leg during a stance\step or fight. If you were to stand in 100\0% and I chopped off your 0% leg and weighed it- IT WOULD HAVE WEIGHT TO IT!

IT WOULD NOT SUDDENLY BECOME HEAVY BECAUSE ALL THE CHI WAS DRIPPING OUT OF IT~ YOU DIM WITTED GALLUTES!

And by the way, the Chicken Step is a method of working on balance, stepping sensitivity and leg strength. No one in their right mind would use a chicken step in a fight UNLESS THEY WERE SCURRYING AWAY FROM A BEATING.

WHY BOTHER!
WHY BOTHER!!!!!

What is this idiot raving about?

So either I need to come to Shen Wu and kick some ass "Chinese Connection" style or I am a totally incompetent, pseudo-fool?

Not leaving much room inbetween are we?

This kinda reminds me of a story one of my friends tells. He signed up for lessons at this kung-fu school in Harrisburg when he was 15. The master's son was a teenager who was the state-kungfu champion or something. The master had my friend and his son fight bare-knuckle, full contact for around 20 or so minutes minutes straight. After a while the master's son started crying while he fought. (Getting repeatedly punched and kicked in the head does that to some people. I think my friend could have knocked his opponent out if his opponent didn't have a significant weight advantage) The master weighs 270 and his son weighed I think around 180 or was it 200? My friend weighed about 130 at the time.

My friend kept glancing over his shoulder at the master to see if he was going to stop the mauling. The master said to my friend, "He has to learn." My friend's shins hurt like hell for a week after the fight. Anyway, my friend stayed at the school for 6 months, but eventually decided to stop going and start going to a boxing gym because the master at the school was a jerk. My friend had years of tkd (junior national champion of Puerto Rico) and japanese karate under his belt before the kungfu fight though.

The master at the taekwondo school I used to go used to Mauy Thai box (was korean national champion or something), is an 8th degree blackbelt, (his father (9th degree) and I think his brother (6th degree, former member of the Korean national tkd team who I also learned from) presented chuck norris his 7th degree blackbelt. The picture hangs on the school wall. His father is the chairman of techniques for the Kukkiwon.

Anyway, as I said before, I know traditional, Moo Duk Kwan taekwondo. It is very similar to japanese karate and tang soo do. We normally sparred full contact and I've won some state championships (never been defeated in full contact and before I got my black belt, at my first full-contact tournament I beat the 2x national champion in my belt division) and I've got plent of trophies and medals from lots of point sparring competitions (which I hate), forms competitions, breaking, and weapons forms.

I do know what the heck I am talking about. I start college next year. Maybe during summer break I'll take a road trip and visit shen wu. That would be a great learning experience. I'm sure all of you guys could teach me a thing or too. Even Meynard who sounds like he is really into knives and other weapons. He might try to scalp or skin me though.

All too true. Anyway, the karate "cat" stance is 30-70 generally, although the back stance (which I favor) is more 25-75, until I switch into a front stance which is then 85-15. The only even-weighted stance is the horse, which is 50-50, unless one does it the original way, which was pidgeon-toed, making it 30-30, I suppose....

Hey Kenneth,
I have heard a few(very few) Wing Chun people comment the Wing Chun stance(cat like stance) can be used as you described(no weight on front leg if its swept, just lift and kick), but that is not the function of the stance of the training behind it at all. Like you said... who is just going to stand there still in a fight in a cat stance and hope the front leg gets swept. I learned that technique while in Goju as a teenager... and found that it was not that great, then I found the real meaning of the stance is the same as Hsing I's Santi stance. Its a pre fighting posture and to train balance etc.

The question about the chicken stepping... it is very similiar to what you see in Hakka styles. I believe the reason I comprehended Hsing I stepping so quickly was do to Hakka and Wing chun, they also have quick and rapid stepping while the rear leg follows tightly. So I guess I did learn the basis of it from sources outside of Hsing I first.

The chicken step when properly performed can generate an enourmous amount of power (Li Guichang family has a few people that do it beautifully_.
I have trained it for many years and it's excelent for fighting.
Li Sanyan (Che style) used to train it.
Song style has a different kind of body mechanic for stepping though.

Ben, as for the stance, we'll talk later.

in addition the chicken is quick on its feet... my teacher use to say to us "try and catch a chicken or rooster" they are quick.

Sleepy, not only the chickenstep, but also the stepping moves to quickly end up behind an opponent, the outward bridgearm (I think the first arm movement you learn in jook lum)which appears to be the basic pakua palm change, the moi fa tai chi-like movements, the wing chun-type constantly closed body, have you ever compared it to pak mei or chow gar? It is very different for some reason.

I dont think I understand your question fully. Do you mean have I compared Wing chun footwork to bak mei footwork, or the arm movements you mentioned?

If you mean have I compare the footwork in Hsing I to wing chun, bak mei etc. Then absolutely... I was always and still do drive myself nuts by evaluating which art is best for me and which parts of which art I should focus on. I can never make up my mind... I will say one thing though... I swear by Wing Chun trapping hands, the footwork is good, but I prefer Hsing I footwork because it is more lively and flowing. The Wing chun footwork drags the back leg to much... thats why Bruce Lee went to the boxing raise heel position due to its mobility.

I thought that perhaps you might be somewhat familiar with chow gar and pak mei. The methods I described in my previous post was taught to me by my jook lum sifu. These are much like what I find described in Hsing-yi and Pakua, but I haven't seen this in the other Hakka styles.

Nah... I am not fimiliar with Chow Gar at all. I hear it is a great style though. My styles are Wing Chun, Hsing I, Yang and Chen Pan Ling tai chi and about 6 forms in hakka kuen... along with a bunch of other stuff I dont even practice(goju ryu, weapons, weapons, weapons).