• Archive through August 06, 2001 August 06 - 11:57 am [20]

To ScottW and Henry Lee,

If you study more than one system at once, that doesn't mean that you will never be good at any of them. Studying multiple system does have its problems. It could be confusing and distracting.

And I agree that a lot of teachers who teach multiple system aren't very good. But there are a lot of bad teachers who only knows and teaches only a single system.

The reasons why these teachers suck are the same. They haven't spend enough time with their systems and/or they have no talent. Studying multiple system is harder, and of course you have to work harder to be good at all of them. Its like getting multiple degrees in college, and people do successfully do that. But if you aren't good, that's all on you for not working hard enough ... or because you just don't have any talent.

Now ... where am I going with this. I believe that they are people who study multiple system at once who are very good. Tim is one of them. But if you want to go classical (like ScottW's reference to Sun Lu Tang), look at the shoalin school of fighting. Lots of those guys learn more than one system at once, and some of them even became famous.

I am interested in learning a style,preferably an internal style,that is relatively simple and straight forword.I have researched this subject a little and it would seem that hsing i would fit these parameters.I realize that as practitioners of hsing i you are undoubtedly bias,but will hsing i fit the bill? I was recently in a severe accident that has left me with some back problems and chronic pain,so I am interested in the healing aspects as well as self defence
I would appreciate your unbiased feedback as well as some direction
thanks

Worm,
What city are you in?

If recovering from back injury- Tai Ji would be the best start. (all the internal arts use the same principles... Tai Ji would get you headed in the right path while doing the least tweaking on your back).

However, Hsing Yi is the fastest path to fightability.

Worm,
I agree with Sum Guye, but alot will depend on the teacher and the method of instruction. Be sure the teacher and the students you work with are aware of your problem and possible limitations, whatever style you choose.

Tim and Sum Guye,
Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
In response to Sum Guyes inquiry,I live in a small,remote town in the rockies,which leads
me to my next question.Is it possible to receive
adequate,quality instruction in martial arts
through video's and books?
My limited exposure makes me wonder.
Once again,THANKS
-worm

Worm

Get everything in print and video by Marc McYoung as well as Payton Quinn. Read Massad Ayoobs classic 'In The Gravest Extreme' regarding the legal use of force. (must reading) Then go to 'Attack Proof' by Perkins, Ridenhour, and Kovsky. If you've got to figure it out on your own then these will give you a good start.

There's a lot of BS out there, a few gems, and much fantasy by 'wanna'be' types and deliberate fakes. Still not the same as a good teacher, but even with among teachers, most of them have only part of the big picture.

Just as a side note, Mike Bingo teaches down in Denver. He was a very early student of Hsu Hong Hsi (sp?) from the Tang Shou Tao branch of Hsing-i and a member of the Special Forces in Vietnam. He is fond of saying his teacher enjoyed teaching him Hsing-i because he knew it was being put to use killing communists. I don't have any contact infor for him, but you might look in the Denver phone directory for a Tang Shou Tao school.

I swear to God that nowadays everybody claims to have been in the Special services. It makes me want to -

Barry,

I can assure you that if you met Mike Bingo you would not puke.He is a great American and has served his country proudly for many years.He also understands what America is all about.

In other words he has/would fight for the right of other Americans to make silly/ignorant statements.

I only met him once,many years ago over in Denver.But once was enough in terms of determining "The Real Deal".

As far as his Special Forces/military career and Tang Shou training,his reputation is beyond reproach.

One would very much want him on their side.

i fail to see logic in the statement of training one art first. i started with wing chun, and kali simultaneous. wc, you wont learn weapons until later, if at all. so kali gives you your weapons base from day 1. also, while studying these 2 arts, i9 was mauled by a grappler, so started taking bjj.
and i also studied silat. i know i can defend with weapons, and i know wyhile f9ighting, that wc comes out of me, not the kali empty hands, or silat. i believe wing chuns drills, such as lop sau,and chi sau, are very stressful,and you learn to fight with it pretty well, that stuff really comes out when fighting.
]
the forms wouldnt do much for fighting, you need them, but i really feel its, tyhe freestyle of chi sau and lop sau, that keep you using your art,and under stress it comes out that way. and of course, same goes for grappling, you are sparring with grappling in every class, and it comes out in real fights, just as you sparred.grapplings easier to spar with, you dont get hurt if you tap, whereas with striking you still can get hurtn easily.

im now studying hsing yi, and hoping to find drills that go freestyle. i see minor similarities to hsingt yi and wc, only hsing yi uses the whole body, whereas wc in my opinion is sometimes more economical, but less powerful.

beegs,

I am not sure what post you are responding to specifically since I only read the context of the last few days in this thread.

I would think that with your experience you would see that for you, your approach was right. Maybe this piece of logic will help. Not every martial arts enthusiast (for whatever reason they are such) is capable of learning more than one style at a time without confusion. Based upon the observations of 30 + yrs as a martial artist and 20 as a teacher I believe the majority are not.

However,if the focus is on a blend in the first place and the instructor imparts the principles and movement skills in a coherent/cohesive fashion (like Tim with Shen Wu) it is not only possible but the student can excell. I still would have to say that for a beginner one style is most certainly enough.

As far as weapons go you are quite right Kali is one of the arts that begins with weapons however this type of training first is necessary when you are living where everyone carries something.

I'd be willing to bet that you can think of lots of people you saw in training halls that could not learn like you were with or without a very competent and patient teacher/teachers.

No matter what system you favor I believe it is commonly accepted knowledge that it is better to have a solid foundation... This requires focus, while some have enough to do what you did, for most this must be learned as well.

Does Hsing-i blend well with other arts shuch as judo, wrestling and boxing?

TendonTerror

Not if you put it in a blender.

I think the more appropriate question would be can a Hsing-I practitioner utilze more than just Hsing-I? In my opinion the individual must grasp the principles and at least rudimentary movement skills of each system in order to do so, in which case I say yes to your question. Not without exceptions regarding individual ability, training practices, and quality of teacher/teachers. Goes back to the fact that Hsing-I doesn't exist and all styles are sets of movement skills and principles for defense and/or attack.

Keep in mind I don't practice Hsing-I. I like beegs above practice Wing Chun among other things. If I have learned anything over the years it is the importance of the individuals comprehension of sound principles combined with proper movement that makes any practitioner regardless of style/styles effective or not. This ability to grasp the principles and apply the movement skills in a coordinated effort varies greatly from individual to individual. So there you have my opinion. The succint version would have been "Just look at Tim"!

regards
Bob Shores

Learn a system, not a "style", and such problems will be moot....I say to the WC gentleman who was "mauled" by a grappler that either his WC was incomplete (read sporterized) or, more than likely, he stood gaping while the grappler took him down because the only counter-moves usable at that instant were not allowed by the "rules". Ah, the bad responses ingrained by tournament play-fighting. You mention Kali, yet my understanding is that Kali has its own grappling aspect (dumog), as well as striking and weapons. This is what I mean by "system". But the bottom line is that whenever I hear about someone whining that his system isn't enough, it is always because A-his "system" is actually some watered down sport or, more likely, B-the whiner hasn't put in anywhere near the time and effort it takes to fully understand the principles of his chosen art. A sifu doesn't make you into a fighter, he just shows you the path and it is up to you to walk the whole route. Lest I sound "holier than thou", I admit it is a hard route that I have yet to finish, but after a couple of years of intense 3-hour workouts, I feel a marked difference in me. Imagine trying to put in that kind of effort into more than one system. It can be done, but it is very, very difficult....I tried once and failed. My hats of to those who can truly do it (as opposed to the dabblers in many systems who kid themselves that that is what they are doing).

And, eventually, you may go beyond thinking in terms of "systems" and begin to think in terms of "principles."

Tim says that no matter what style you learn your body is the same body. You are either using it efficiently, from a biomechanical perspective, and making use of inherent strenghts OR you are not. There does seem to be a problem combining "styles" that emphasize strong muscular contractions with those that emphasize relaxation. It is a contradictory approach that confuses your mind/body.

Tim also says that no single style contains the "sum of all martial knowledge." Thus, the necessity for cross-training if one wishes to become a complete fighter. Groundfighting, in particular, seems to be deficient in many of the classical styles. Maybe they didn't bother with it, figuring that on the battlefield prolonged grappling would just get you stuck from behind by one of your opponent's comrades.

Excellent points guys. Maybe I'm getting there, I don't know, its just that now I'm starting to adjust my form to better suit me without compromising on the dyanmics that make it work....before, there was no reason to do it, if I tried, some pointless hodge-podge of unrelated principles would be the result. This also seems to have freed me from the hysterical need to amass all the forms of a system....now I like simplicity. I don't even want to be a "closed door disciple" now, as I realize that is a great personal sacrifice that I am unwilling to make (as opposed to the many students of "secret knowledge" that seem so intent on glorifying themselves rather than their art....a master would leave his precious knowledge in the care of one such as that??). I would like to cross-train in a grappling system, but for the reasons mentioned by Man from Missouri, I'd rather it not be a ground-fighting style. Aren't some styles of Pa Kua primarily grappling? I read one of Park Bok Nam's books recently, and the principles he describes are the closest thing I've ever read to my boxing style.

This is a great topic. However, the discussion has gone far beyond the original heading 'Can you use hsing yi in a fight?' Which, by the way, seems like a silly question. I figure that all of the martial arts styles that have survived for hundreds of years must have something valid to offer, otherwise they would have died out. I don't think anyone would continue to practice a particular style just for the sake of 'tradition,' if they were getting the crap kicked out of them every time they got in a fight. Or, for that matter, they would have been killed in the old days, and there wouldn't be anyone left to carry on the tradition. The laws of evolution must apply to martial arts styles - adapt and adjust to changes in the environment (type of fighting one is likely to encounter). It's the old adage 'survival of the fittest.' Well, they have all survived, in some form or another, up to the present day. Think about all of the so-called styles of martial arts that must have died out.

Kenneth, I am with you when it comes to simplicity in training. Wang Shu Jin said, "It is better to be able to do one or two techniques well than to do 10,000 poorly." Of course, those one or two tecniques should represent principles (of body use and application) that can be extrapolated into many specific variations as the situation dictates. The Single Palm Change of Bagua is a good example. I am convinced that the basic practices of any style are sufficient to develop high level skill, if practiced with a clear idea of the underlying principles. As far as the "closed door disciple" thing goes, Tim says that a lot of that is just a slightly different interpretation of the same forms. For instance, hitting the opponent in the throat instead of the chest. Nowadays, you can go to your local bookstore and find all of the 'secret' vital areas to strike. But, on the other hand, the Internal arts tend to emphasize hitting with maximum power through the opponent's center, rather than targeting specific points. It is hard enough just to hit someone who is moving around and resisting you. During the chaotic nature of a fight, I'm not going to count on hitting someone on a spot the size of a dime, let alone two or three of them in sequence depending on what time of day it is!?! You get the point.

Bagua emphasizes controlling the opponent. But, so do the other Internal styles. Elsewhere on this site, Tim describes the concept of 'sticking' in detail. Look for it.

Groundfighting has become a reality of self-defense. If I am attacked on the street, the chances are pretty good that the guy will take me to the ground. Tim says that you only have to learn a little bit in order to be able to escape, and get back on your feet. Not everyone is going to compete in Jiu Jitsu tournaments, but most of us got involved in martial arts in the first place to feel more secure about defending ourselves. Why not take it all the way?

Finally, I believe that every really good martial artist eventually creates his own 'personal' style. Even if he only studies one traditional style, he will realize that some techniques work better for his body type than others and will tend to emphasize those in training. Tim teaches his 'personal' style as Shen Wu. Of course, the principles are universal, and that's what each person should base his or her own 'personal' style on.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble, I guess the bottom line is that you fight the man, not his style. I mean, I consider japanese karate to be mainly sport, but I'd never say that to Mas Oyama's face!

Another important factor to consider is physical conditioning. An athlete, who is in great shape, will probably beat someone who does martial arts as a hobby every time, black belt or not. That's the real world. Obviously, fitness level is dependent upon the individual, not the style.

True, however, if one does martial arts as a "hobby", I don't consider him a martial artist. Also, if one has experienced real Ninpo Taijutsu, he'd find that conditioning, though an important factor, is nowhere near the decisive factor.

I take my martial arts training pretty seriously, but I have a full-time job that has nothing to do with martial arts. I work in a warehouse. If I was a bodyguard or bounty hunter, I would be a real professional. However, I have limited time available to train, not to mention trying to give my woman enough attention to keep her happy. The UFC guys train 8 hours a day. I can't compete with that.

I would like to hear more about your opinion of Ninpo Taijutsu before I comment on that. I have no direct experience with it.

Ninpo Taijutsu is probably the most complete system I have ever heard of with strikes, throws, jointlocks, kicks, groundfighting, weapons, and it is trained in traditional japanese kata system (2-man with uke and nage), filipino-style flow drills and free-flow exchange (randori) that starts slow and cooperative, and VERY, VERY gradually accelerates to higher speeds since literally anything goes. No way to do competitive "sparring" here. Perhaps it is better described as an absolute survival art rather than just a fighting art. Techniques rely more on angles, point of balance, timing and efficient body dynamics rather than mere strength. The closest thing to this I experienced was when I attended a session of BJJ some years back. Properly done, both these arts' techniques work effortlessly (though Taijutsu can occasionally seem horrendously violent), yet that doesn't mean it is easy. Great emphasis is placed on breakfalls and rolls in the beginning as this is the best way to develop the natural relaxation so necessary to make the techniques work, and hand to hand, weapon to weapon and hand to weapon techniques are trained intermingled rather than as separate blocks of knowledge, partners are constantly changed for exosure to different body types and temperaments, new drills are constantly created, various environments, city, outdoors, night, etc, tactics, improvisation, you get the picture, there is little rote memorization as the emphasis is on internalizing principles to the point where you can create techniques as the situation demands. Advanced technique appears much simpler than the basics because as your various senses become better tuned for combat, the less that extraneous movement is needed. Aargh, I'm rambling again, I tried to put it in a nutshell, but I guess that isn't possible, since the possibilities are endless and the regimen is almost spontaneous. I read in one of Stephen Hayes' books that this is because Ninpo philosophy is diametrically opposed to the typical Zen philosophy (although zazen is practiced), thus, all emotions are embraced as tools to be used in the right context rather than looked upon as encumberances to be eliminated. Anyway, if one considers BJJ as an "internal" art, then this system is definitely internal. A chinese IMA practitioner would feel right at home with them in their informal, yet serious attitude, they aren't afraid to have fun. Some years back in one of the first few NHB events, a cop apparently had trained to use Taijutsu principles under sporting restrictions and beat his opponent apparently with little effort. I watched this (on tape) with several karate practitioners from a local dojo. They didn't seem to understand how he did it and eventually came to the conclusion that his opponent wasn't very good, as a real struggle, in their estimation, required much tension and sweat. Gracie had thrown in the towel earlier because of a broken knuckle incurred during a previous bout, but BJJ against Taijutsu would have been VERY interesting, I think. For about a year and a half, I tried training in this AND a style of southern mantis, but had to eventually give one up. Much to my surprise, I have up the ninjutsu. Gotta follow what speaks to your heart. Interestingly, many years later now, I find proper relaxation, angling, timing and distancing increasingly important as the next step in my boxing. Think about Rickson Gracie who defeats all comers by NOT trying to "out-tough" them. One final but important note: if you think chinese arts have their share of frauds, you ain't seen nothin' till you've seen the vast army of "shadow warriors" who'll train you in esoteric secrets for a small monthly fee, sometimes even by videotape. Many of these clowns even have some association with Stephen Hayes or Masaaki Hatsumi as their seminars are open to anybody and they will let anyone take their pictures with them. There was a story going around once that a richboy flew to Japan to train in Hatsumi's dojo but couldn't quite get the hang of it. When Hatsumi finally asked him what he wanted of him, the richboy replied "a blackbelt from you", whereupon Hatsumi went into his office, returned and threw him a blackbelt. This person now has an extensive "bujinkan" dojo network and video course touting his tutelage under the grandmaster. I think Hatsumi believes frauds to be just another obstacle to be overcome by the truly dedicated. Remember, neither Hatsumi or Hayes (or their representatives) will ask you to accept anything you cannot experience for yourself.

complete.. what about the use of paragraphs....hmmm

Kenneth,

An excellent post, notwithstanding the lack of paragraphs. You seem to have a very high opinion of the art. You must think a lot of Southern Mantis to have given up the Ninjutsu training.

When I use the term 'physical conditioning,' I mean conditioning in the broadest sense of the word. I looked up 'condition' in the dictionary, and one definition reads, "to affect, modify, or influence." I would argue that ALL martial arts are just different methods of physical conditioning, organized around strategic combat principles, of course.

In the author's preface of Ninja Vol. 1, Stephen Hayes wrote, "...I have witnessed and personally experienced phenomena of what appeared to be a non-physical nature, during my years of ninja training. However, further intense study brought me to the realization that all things are physical, if we are only broad-minded enough to acknowledge the fact."

Steven

When I felt another ramble coming on, I felt paragraphs would stretch it out even further, lol!My sifu was the most powerful martial artist I had ever seen; he once dislocated a student's shoulder with a jerk of his wrist against the student's forearm (the student was told that he was using too much tension in his arms) during sticking hands. What is depicted on the commonly available videos of southern mantis or Pak Mei seem somewhat stiff, karate-ish and stationary compared to what my sifu showed me. One day I was perusing Park Bok Nam's 1st book at Borders and found that the dynamics depicted within were the closest to my mantis style I had yet seen, hence my interest in this site. I had also heard these Hakka systems described as "both internal and external" (but we know better than to fall for such categorizations). One brother who had trained in Hsing-Yi found similiarities in certain techniques. As for the ninjutsu, I feel that the natural subconcious relaxation I achieved from training in it kept me from injury in 2 separate accident situations. One truly has to get around the hokey movie image, open his mind and jump into the training with both feet for a while to truly experience it. Its principles may make plain why the Gracies emerge victorious so much. They may be the only true "martial artists" in the arena (if one doesn't consider the sport-oriented systems as "martial". Consider how they continually develop their system as a vital, living discipline: real fights, like the masters of old. I guess it is easier to get away with stuff like that in Brazil

Interesting observation about the dynamics depicted in Park's first book being the closest to your (Southern) mantis style that you've seen. There was a post over at another forum that said Park's teacher taught (and used) Southern mantis as well. The post was by a guy who had trained in Korea, and knew about Park's gongfu elder brothers.

Tom, could you tell me what forum? There was nothing about southern mantis in Park's book. In my style, there is a great pre-occupation with defending the centerline as in Wing Chun, punches are delivered with whole body movement, palm strikes are done with a joint-by-joint whiplash, the most basic movement is what appears to be a palm-change which is the principle for several other techniques, the "gun-sight" posture and "crushing step" is stressed, technique is very mobile with practice leading to a sense of constant centeredness (my sifu's favorite technique was getting behind his opponent), and free-exchange sticking hands is the heart of training without rigid rules of compliance dictating how we move.

Kung Fu Online, Neijia forum, from a poster "Leimeng". If you register there you could e-mail or PM him directly.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=59620d553bcff5223d6e2ed7e42fd1ea&threadid=15253&perpage=15&highlight=park%20southern%20mantis&pagenumber=3

"~I have heard the same thing as Taoboxer about Pak's standing in the BaGua family in Korea. My information comes from having lived in Korea before. I have talked with several BaGua teachers in Korea and all of them say that the senior disciple of Lu Shui-Tian was not Pak. It was a Master Chong something, I will try to dig up the information and post it later. Pak spoke English and had American Army students at PyongTaek Army base. They sponsered him to come to the US. Only one or two of the other Bagua teachers in Korea speak English. (Luckily I speak Chinese and some Korean.)"

Also: from a KFO poster "Taoboxer" http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=1895fe85b24d3be1869a3a32db5e7468&threadid=15253&perpage=15&highlight=park%20southern%20mantis&pagenumber=2

"I have information from sources whom I trust about Park.

Basically, the story as I have heard it is this:

He did train for a long time with the old man...he is a good fighter. He is not the most senior student by a long shot. A lot of what he puts forth as a "biography" is bogus. What he teaches in the US is "genuine" bagua, but it is far from complete, and the other students of Lu Shui Tien in Korea know this. Most of it is basic exersices. He does not know or teach the Southern Mantis that his teacher practiced and taught to the other high ranked students.

There was more that I was told but I have forgotten some of the details......."