Is anyone familar with sun style taiji?

I am preparing to study xingyi under Sun style master, Yang Jie, whose lineage is sun lu tang/zheng huai xian/wu xing yu, and then himself.

I am honestly not sure what to expect. I dont how different it might be from other styles of xing yi (hebei etc.).

I also wanted to ask Tim:

Does it make sense for a kung fu teacher to reccomend only 2 classes per week, (while the student does forms on his own everyday)?

My goal of learning xingyi is not just for health or discovery but also real fighting, and I hope to eventually find out how it might blend with other arts (western boxing, escrima).

My back ground is bjj and luta livre.

Is luta livre actually a style? That teaches fighting?

oh nevermind, i shouldve looked first. I was getting it confused with mexican wrestling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj_vBUMVOCg

Do you want info on Taiji or Xing Yi? Your post is confusing.
Style does not matter in learning how to fight, not as much as teacher. How good is your teacher?

Jake

Sorry for the confusing post.

Sun style taiji is a combination of xingyi, bagua, and taiji. It was founded by the guy who first coined the whole internal/external thing (sun lun tang). He mastered bagua and xing yi first, and this allowed him to get really good at taiji in a much shorter time than most other people.

The teacher is condsidered a master here in chengdu, but doesnt have a school, he works a normal job and is about 50 years old. He usually meets his students in a park.

I am told that he is adept at xingyi and often teaches students that first. Some later focus on taiji. I am told he can punch really ••••••• hard.

I havent started training, and am not sure I believe he will really show me what he knows.

Its really hard to use the american mindset here when looking at schools in China. When i was in America, I had a very "show me the goods" and "show me you can fight" attitude which seems like it would be taken as idiocy here.

There are a million things to consider as far as relationships and ettiquette, indirect communication etc, cuz this is China.

Any advice from people who have been in my shoes?

Arthur,

It's not necessary to ask the teacher to "show you the goods."

You stated your purpose in training is to learn how to actually fight. No matter who you visit, all you need do is look at the class. If the students are not sparring realistically, in the case of the IMA striking and wrestling; if they are not conditioning and working with pads and bags, you won't be learning to fight.

You should know this already from your BJJ and grappling training.

Arthur,
Thanks for the clarification. BTW in vol17 issue 4 of the JOurnal of Asian Martial Arts, some gringo wrote an extensive article on Sun Taiji you may want to check out!

Oh, and what Tim said x 10!
Jake

Thanks guys. Thats the thing, I have never seen any of his students, he usually teaches privates.

I am not clear on what you mean by sparring. Because i am interested in RBSD, I dont want to focus too much on MMA or muay thai type sparring, because I dont want to build bad habits as in developing what some call sparring mentality and sparring strategy. I dont believe MMA translate very well to the street.

But definitely bagwork, pads, conditioning, partner drills, and periodic stress testing/battle testing (maybe thats what you mean as well) of some kind-that is a must.

Tim, how do you think training xingyi form, structure, and conditioning ONLY, would go- if I had other unoffical outlets to practice it full contact (friends and roomates who wrestle, do muay thai etc).

I am guessing that would be greatly inferior to an IMA school that is already aimed at making fighters?

It may seem stupid to ask, but I have never studied a forms oriented martial art before, only western arts. And so far it seems hard to find genuine kung fu in my city (chinese seem obsessed with taekwondo and performance wushu).

Your questions have already been answered. If you want RBSD then a Muay Thai school or MMA school would be 10x better than the overwhelming majority of CMA schools!

"But definitely bagwork, pads, conditioning, partner drills, and periodic stress testing/battle testing (maybe thats what you mean as well) of some kind-that is a must."
You just described a typical kickboxing / MMA school.
If you want to learn to swim, you have to get in the water!
If you are looking for a performance art, or something you can practice solo with minimal risk of injury; then forms, standing and what not are perfect. Just don't expect to learn self defense solely with those training methodologies.
Cheers
Jake

If you want to crosstrain in xingyi tai chi, bagua or whichever. You should have ample time to fit them into your schedule. And maybe even ample money.

You would be attending, and paying for two classes.

Perhaps it would be more sensible to attend a school that blankets your fighting needs.

As for the benefits. I think it all depends on your understanding of the art, which takes time and practice, and how well you can apply what you've learned, which takes actual sparring.

"Tim, how do you think training xingyi form, structure, and conditioning ONLY, would go- if I had other unoffical outlets to practice it full contact (friends and roomates who wrestle, do muay thai etc)."

I think that is a last resort option, better than no sparring at all, but it would be much better if you had a Xingyiquan teacher that included the resistive training and sparring within the context of Xingiquan training.

Learning Xingyiquan basics and forms alone will not automatically transfer into how to actually fight with Xingyiquan without specific training, just like learning to jump rope and hit a speed bag will not automatically teach you how to box.

i always dropped the jump rope when I swung at the speed bag anyway.

B2

Tim, thanks for the confirmation and clarification.

Jake,
would you say thats true (your comment) in regard to an underground cma sifu in china, from a good line going back to sun lun tang (yea i know lineage is not the main thing)?

Just to clarify though: when I say I dont want to spar too much I mean i dont want to focus on cardio, feeling the other fighter out, trying to block punches, or learning sports fighting that leads to bad habits with weapons and multiple opponents. I also think most mma spends too much focus on the clinch and not enough time on how to avoid clinching.

To me the point of learning a style like xingyi is to help me develop my own self defense skills which focuses on speed (which means fists and sticks MUCH MORE than knees and elbows), avoids groundfighting (which means prememptive striking and avoiding/minimizing the clinch, ), doesn't teach bad habits around weapons -including a knife hidden in a boot- and multiple opponents (so not so much bjj and modern muay thai kind of training).

I want to train some sparring, but I think drills as well as live attacks focusing on screaming in your ears, sucker punchs, visual distractions etc are more realistic than circling another fighter in a ring or tying to block and reply to a flurry of strikes. And thats not what i have seen at mma schools. Its also not what I have seen in cma schools. Thats what I have seen at schools that kick mma fighters butts and turn them into students. Its also not what I have seen in cma schools.

I used to be into muay thai and bjj, and while i still love the latter (as a sport and art and passion), i lost the faith that they, without serious modification, are the best choice for the battlefield (though I am into taking some tools from them).

Arthur
How often do you find yourself battling on the "battlefield?" I understand your intentions (I used to be no different) but may I suggest a huge dose of reality bro! What you describe is along the lines of Krav Maga and silly off shoots that are similar to KM. If that is what you want, seek it out.
But if you are just interested in defending yourself in a modern setting go purchase a pistol and learn effective methods for utilizing it.

Good luck with your training,
Jake

Jake,

I dont think you are dissing me, but maybe you are projecting a bit?

I dont know which reality you are talking, yours or mine?

I know its hard to read tone or intention on the internet, but I was just using battlefield as a metaphor for "the street" (which is a funny term too)- ie. a real self defence situation

( btw how do you know I am not a soldier? Or a bouncer?) I am not some special forces freak or somebody who shaves with an army knife every morning. I dont "scan" public places for threats or whatever.

But I dont think it is strange or unrealistic to practice martial arts focusing on self defense. Thats my reality.

Maybe I DO know how to use a gun-but maybe i dont want to risk killing anyone, dont like the idea of carrying one, and besides there are many places (even whole countries ) where its not permitted to carry one.

And most importantly, how many altercations are worth potentially killing someone or spending your life in prison for? I'd reather knock someone on their ass and then run for it. (or sometimes just running for it first).

I understand that many people will never need to know how to use martial skills and thats great. The training itself is the reward, definitely. If thats all you ever have to think about, thats awesome. But thats not everyone's reality. If I already like training for the enjoyment,the exercise, the challenge, the art, the creativity, why not add some peace of mind by focusing on RBSD, weapons etc?

Because violence is sometimes an actual risk in my life. NOt as big a risk as some other things, but its there. I am not paranoid about it, I'm cool with it, I 'm not angry or pumped up, its just life. Mostly good social skills, some brains, and good life choices handle 80% of it, but 100%? Every day of the year? That not my reality.

It seems odd to have to write this on a martial arts discussion board.

best wishes,

arthur

ps while there are some silly marketing shtiks and crappy schools as part of the whole krav maga thing, it not all BS. No need to turn our noses up.

Thats said, I am sorry it was sort of silly for me to ask about this xingyi teacher without having more info to give about the students, school etc.

Arthur brings up some good points about "reality" in training.

Reality for an armed to the teeth Israeli commando is not the same as reality for a foreign tourist in China and neither of the previous two are reality for an MMA fighter in the Octagon.

I think it is important to realize that there are fundamental constants across virtually all situations, when you are trained and prepared for those, the rest is specific detail.

True. But Arthur has yet to state his "reality."
Arthur,
I did not mean any "dis" nor to "turn my nose up" to anything. It sounds like you are having a hard time deciding on a school/ teacher because you are not clear (at least here) as to what your goal is. If it is self defense, I think a MMA / Muay Thai gym in general would be good! Obviously if weapons are an issue or training in them is needed, then by all means seek out a qualified cat who does weapons training.

My bad for breaking my "no forum" resolution. Best of luck in your training.
Jake

Jake,

As I wrote, i didnt take it as a dis, just some miscommunication. I think you are writing in good faith and being helpful.

You are right, i am confused about where to go, because there are so few really good Jeet Kun Do type schools that it seems neccessary to peice things together from 3 fields-mma, tma, and self defense-and this seems like a bit much, as well as reinventing the wheel.

As far as I know, I have never heard of any respected mma folks who have been around for awhile say that pure mma is good for self defense. Just the opposite-I have only heard that it would have to be seriously modified.

I am in no way dissing mma, and i think it is obvious that mma teaches conditioning, balance, strength, and how to be a good striker and wrestler-all these have a huge amount of carry over to real self defense.

One thing I believe is-if I am a seasoned martial artist and someone calls me out, and I belive he is alone and weaponless, there is no need to fight. Thats a duel, which, outside of sport, is a glorification of violence really. Its dumb and I have no interest, the point is just to leave.

to me, the part of MA that relates to real fighting (as oppossed to fun and personal development-which hopefully is a much bigger chunk of the experience) is about the surprise attack, the one you can't avoid.


best,
arthur

Tim,

What would you say those contants are?

best,

arthur