To Tim,

I am a long term reader of this discussion board and a practitioner of Hsing I over in the UK. The reason for my posting is that I wondered if you could help me see if I am on the right path with my power generation training.

It has occurred to me in my practice of the Five Elements that the methods of generating power can be further subdivided into three methods, all relying on the reverse muscular action through the legs and up the body as you have described in various postings on ‘Spinal Waves’. I was wondering if you could identify if I am correct in my thinking on this matter or not.

As far as I can see the three groupings are such, firstly Pi Chuan on its own, then Tzuan Chuan and Beng Chuan as the second group and finally Pao Chuan and Heng Chuan as the last. My reasoning behind this is that Pi Chuan uses the weight of the upper body in a downward motion, involving the contraction of the stomach muscles in a similar way to throwing a ball in an over arm fashion. I believe baseball players use this type of movement, coming from above and following through across the body.

The second grouping of Tzuan and Beng try to make a direct line from whichever foot one is using and up through the body to the weapon/hand. As I see this it is like the thrusting action of a spear or bayonet only through the body.

Finally the last group of Pao and Heng use a rotational force around the body’s axis (by which I mean the line running upwards from the foot or point of stability) in either an outward or inward twisting fashion.

These are my observations, however, I have read a lot of what you have posted on this board and on your site and would greatly appreciate any feedback you could give as to whether I am on the right path in my training by thinking this way.

Thank you,

Martin Williams

Martin;
What is confusing you on how to post a message?
Please send me an E-mail if you are having problems or if you are confused.

Hi Martin,
From the information in your post, it sounds like you have a good idea of how to generate power in the Elements. The only point I'd make is not to contract your abs too much when striking with Pi Quan (not so much that your chest collapses). The way we practice the form, most of the force comes from the lowering of the entire bodyweight.

Classically, the Chinese say the power of Pi Quan is like striking downward with an axe, Zuan Quan is like a water spout surging upward, beng is like shooting an arrow straight forward with a sudden release, Pao explodes outward like a cannon ball and heng is like rolling a heavy ball along the earth. I'm sure most practitioners have heard these comparisons before, but they really are useful images.

Hi Tim,

Thank you for your reply. I'm glad that I seem to be on the right track, but I will keep the point regarding Pi Chuan in mind from now on.

Thanks again.

Martin.

P.S. Sorry about the multiple postings, I was getting frustrated with my computer loading so slowly and resent the message without realising it had already posted it.

No problem. Thanks.

Hi people
two things are weird in this discussion: 1. no mentioning internal organs from where the strike is supposed to originate and 2. not mentioning dantian rotation?
how can one ever hope to understand a xingyi strike without taking into considerations these two concepts?

Internal organs from where the strike is supposed to originate???

I was hoping that Tim would respond to the question as it is something I have heard discussed at seminars and read about as a central theory of the internal.

It's the central theory of internal for Chi Huggers.

"The" central theory eh, well ain't that sumfin. So is it true, are bob#2 and Tim one in the same? Inquiring minds want to know.

Nope, not true at all Walter T. Joyce Sr. Bob #2 is an entirely person. Yes, yes I guess many chi fanatics like to discuss such things.

While the subject of organ origination regarding the five elements is too esoteric for me, the question about power from the dantien is not. Even if you don't buy the qi paradigm many top level internal practitoners (i.e. Chen Xiaowang and Li Tailiang) insist that power must be driven by the dantien (the physical area of the body not the elixer field). Otherwise it ain't internal.

Buddy

One day during push hands I was concentrating on sung, and listening. Next thing I new a dry fart gyrated my dantien and my right hand sprung out of nowhere, slapping my partner in the face knocking him over.

The organ/Element connection in Xing Yi Quan refers to the movements of a particular Element form having a beneficial effect on the health and function of a particular organ system. It has nothing to do with power in the Element forms "originating" from an internal organ.

Walter,
I post under my own name. Besides, Bob #2 scares me.

Tim, I knew that. (well not that B2 scared you.) I was using my arid sense of humor to express my preference from hearing a response from you. Although we may not agree on everything (how boring would that be) I respect your research and training efforts and wanted to get your take on the topic.
Good training,
Walter

Tim,
in other words you are out of your element here...pun intended
please note the contradiction in your defensive statement...u state that a)particular Element form (is )having a beneficial effect on the health and function of a particular organ system

and b)It has nothing to do with power in the Element forms "originating" from an internal organ.

In an energy based internal style the beneficial effect is energetical;the power is energetical.

and yet you say that these two energies dont have anything to do with each other?

Yuri

Here is the Sun Lu Tan's definition of the Pi taken from the Empty Flower website:

"..............................
Pi Quan is first of the five elements. It's beginning stance is identical to San Ti. It corresponds to the lungs in the Wu Xing and therefore belongs to Metal. When Metal is concealed inside, the nose connects to the lungs, expanding and compressing them with each movement.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And you stil say that this "expanding and ccompressing " has nothing to do with the energy of the pi quan?


Yuri

Yuri,

I'm sure Tim will enjoy answering your post when he completes his travels later this month.

I'll put aside my overwhelming urge to make you aware of how much of a condescending jackhole your posts make you appear to be. Instead I'll simply point out that upon my reading (for the very first time) the quote you provided from Sun LuTang it is completely obvious to me that Sun is saying that the movement of Pi Quan is good for the lungs... which is pretty much what Tim said, who, by the way, has read (in the original Chinese) everything Sun Lu Tang ever put on paper.

It does not sound to me as if Sun is saying the lungs generate the power of the movement... but the movement benefits the lungs. But I supposed if you squint your mind and look at it sideways it could be there.

I know several simple magic tricks. 95% of the people and children I've shown them to are impressed with the trick. 5% remain convinced I have mystical powers. You remind me of the latter
percentile.

I'm looking forward to wacky stuff from you in the future.

(by the way... in this thread so far Tim is not the one who seems to be "out of his element"

by the way, I've re-read the entire thread and cannot find ANYwhere where Tim stated (as you implied) "expanding and ccompressing has nothing to do with the energy of the pi quan"...
which makes me very curious;

1)why did you invent that as if Tim said it?

2)did you read Tim's response and infer that he
does not believe expanding and compressing has anything to do with the energy of pi quan?

3) does re-reading the thread help.. or do you
not realize you may often insert extra information in things you read?

I rotate my dantien in your general direction.

hmmm... when I read it, it sounds like Sun LuTang didn't know the nose and lungs were connected unless someone is standing in SanTi.... what's up with that?