Tim's Discussion Board: Martial Arts - Miscellaneous: Pakua

   By Jason M. Struck on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 11:55 am: Edit Post

every six months or so, someone new finds these guys, and everyone rips em a new one.

Normally I would think that this was boring, and sort of sigh as it went on, but these guys are hilarious .
So, have at 'em.
Damn, there isn't a thing on any of those pages taht isn't total bs.

   By marc daoust on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 08:54 pm: Edit Post

Jason, i'm not sure exactly what you said?
but i like the red.
i'm just glad someone drinks as much as i do!

   By james thorne (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 07:13 pm: Edit Post

just as an fyi for all of you very funny people, as a student at one of the schools master ( title that is given for the black belt rank as well as traditional respect)landau is a member of. a few things to note, first off the comment on the mis-typing of the word educate can at worst be called minor, of note is fatboys wonderful control of the english language, secondly there are several names that pa kua is refered by, pakua, pakua chang, bagua zhuang and so on, also the "articulated sticks" the school was founded in argentina so a large part of the "phrasing" is translated from portugese and not all of it translates to what we would consider proper. next if you look at a lot of the "kung-fu" schools they incorporate "pakua" training throughout they're own styles. and just out of curiosity what is it jason that is total bs?

   By Taiwan 69-73 (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 02:35 am: Edit Post

Mr. Thorne,

Before the others who post on this site attack your post I'll make a few notes. I have been involved in the study and teaching of the Chinese Martial Arts for 37 years, beginning in Taiwan in 1969. I am from the "old school" and have been strongly criticized by some of those who post here. Fatboy calls me grand dad, etc and not knowing his age I may well be old enough to be his grandfather but I believe he intends it as an insult. It is of little concern.

Being of the "old school" I know that pa kua chang (as it used to be Romanized, I screwed that up in a post saying Anglicized. Got drilled for that one too) is the proper name of the style. Indeed some do abbreviate it to pa kua, etc. That too is of little concern so long as what is taught is proper and true to the style.

My teacher in Taiwan was Hsu Hong Chi. Hsu Lao Shi began training at age 8. He studied and taught (indeed, there is always more to learn) until his death in 1974 when he was in his fifties. When anyone asked how much he knew about the martial arts he would smile and say, "Just a little." He told me, "If others want to call you master that is fine. You should never say your are master so and so. You should always say only that you know just a little. You should always be humble. Demonstrate your knowledge only when you are among friends or when you have no other choice." In short, as I said above, no man should ever refer to himself as Master so and so. Leave that to others. For you to refer to your teacher as master is good and proper if he desires to allow it.

I'm a bit confused in regard to the translation of phrasing you mention. The Argentines speak Spanish. There may be some Portuguese speaking people or communities, however. It is Brazil where the official language is Portuguese.

Pa kua chang and Hsing I Chuan are almost always taught in conjunction with one another. You are correct in that many of the techniques found in pa kua are taught in many schools where the Chinese martial arts are taught.

There are a number of very knowledgeable martial artists who visit and post on this site. Some who post are indeed funny but most are not.

   By Fatboy (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 06:47 am: Edit Post

Hey Kung Fu Grandad it's not an insult, just a nick name ! That might be your point of view that you view it as an insult......

“We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away.” Chuang Tzu

   By Jason M. Struck on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 08:47 am: Edit Post

oh , i've been called out by the crew.

when I said everything on those webpages, I meant everything.

for instance: the aikido hakama with a tuxedo stripe. Calling a jian 'saber', teaching the sai and tonfa.
I am looking at the page now, trying to pick an example. It's hard, because every word is so hilarious. Where's Mr. Ott. He needs to see this. THis is exactly my point.

Again, everything about this system is cash grabbing, bull -spouting fantasizing crap.

I hope that my use of expletives belies my TOTAL LOSS FOR WORDS

   By long xing (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 12:02 pm: Edit Post

bagua zhuang, eight trigram post, well there's a new one,
black belt is also fairly novel for a chinese martial art, as is calling any black belt a master which doesn't even happen in most if any japanese or korean martial arts

people and school like this really piss me off, i can't get my head around how people feel comfotable doing things like this and cheating a whole load of people out of money. this is the best example of a guy finding a name of an art and then throwing some stuff together and trying to sell it.

   By Fatboy (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 09:58 am: Edit Post

Hey if Erle Montaigue's PA KUA system has the mighty bagua wooden man, these guys must have the 36 mighty bagua wooden men chambers of Shaolin Pau Kua, and all carpeted in rice paper.... WOW !!! did you notice the snake burned tatoo ????

Their associations logo looks the same as the darma groups in the TV Series LOST??? Yea you got it 2 groups of people aimlessly lost wandering trying to find answers !!!! Bawahahaaha !!!

   By James Thorne (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 04:38 pm: Edit Post

ok, your going to suck me in i'll have to admit it, sigh. taiwain I appreciate the post several things that were posted I agree with and several I dont. as far a the group ripping me thats fine and completely expected :o). lets see........ a business ( school ) charging a fee........yep any school, martial arts, educational motivational etc, business. purpose.........make money strange concept I admit but somehow it seems to work. having said that i'm probably one of the most jaded and untrusting people you'll ever meet, my personal feeling is that everyone is going to screw you, the ones that haven't just haven't had the chance yet. so obviously I question everything I read, or hear looking for the hidden meaning. if the martial arts instructors/masters whatever title they're given were truly just trying to further the art they would all be teaching for free no wouldn't they?. therefore every school is out to milk you for as much money as they can, that doesnt mean your not going to walk away with more skill or knowledge though does it? now I have a question. does anyone consider jeet kun do ( yes i know it's probably spelled incorrectly ) a true martial art? not being an expert i do believe it was created by taking what bruce lee considered the best or most useful of several martial arts and molded it into his own form. correct me if i'm wrong ( or even if i'm not feel free ) does that mean it's any less useful or potentially deadly?. so yes the pakua international school ( insert derisive comment here ) may have taken some parts of other styles or schools to create what it is now. and yes the logo i believe is the same as the darma groups on lost. which leads me into the next statement why do people seek out anything new? be it martial arts or an education, new job or even girl/boy friend? it couldn't possibly be because in some form or way they are missing something or are looking for answers to something. so in reality everyone is looking for some answer somewhere, unless there is some person out there who has all the answers if you know where that person is i would love to get in touch with them lol. either way, why would you need to belittle another school or style? and while most of the people that post here may be very knowledgeable taiwan although per your teacher none of them should ever put that idea out there. I do find anyone who needs to make fun of anything they are not a part of funny. and noticed that nobody bothered to answer nigata in a constructive way. so jason i'm assuming you are a martial arts student does your school/dojo have a website I would be interested in seeing it's profound and altruist advertising to draw students in for *gasp* a fee.

   By james thorne (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 08:32 pm: Edit Post

ok taiwan, I was in a bad mood this morning and ranting, so for the group accept my appology, i've been looking at the other postings and have seen some actual thought out and intelligent discussions from this forum ( not the one im posting in however ) jason and fatboys comments just get under my skin which means i still think they're funny ;o)

   By Jason M. Struck on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 12:31 am: Edit Post


the only school that I attend right now:

they charge me $50 a month.

i do more training time with my friends, who are experienced in a variety of martial arts. We do a lot of grappling, and some stand-up striking practice. We don't charge each other anything.

"does anyone consider jeet kun do ( yes i know it's probably spelled incorrectly ) a true martial art? not being an expert i do believe it was created by taking what bruce lee considered the best or most useful of several martial arts and molded it into his own form."
I'm no expert on Jeet Kune Do either, but I always thought that it was not a collection of various techniques, but rather the opposite. A FORMLESS form, that seeks to develop the individual, by accepting all applicable techniques having no technique. Bruce seemed to acknowledge that a lot of the ways that Chinese martial arts had been cultivated in the recent past are not that realistic or helpful for fighting, and had accepted that it was more about the personal attributes of the fighter, and the principles of effective technique that he internalized, rather than the list of strikes or locks or forms he memorized. Hence his devotion to strength and conditioning, and his scientific exploration of everything related to what he developed into his own art. I would think that his goal was for every JKD student today to fight as uniquely as each individual is, rather than with the most efficient combination of this judo throw, that wing chun trap or this savate kick.

   By Jason M. Struck on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 12:37 am: Edit Post

please check out maurice. he has many titles. none of them master.

   By long xing (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 08:20 am: Edit Post

although there were some people who mention the money involed, this is not at the heart of the issue (well not ofr me anyway) it is true that bruce lee took parts from other martial arts and made a new art called jeet kun do, however that is just the point he didn't continue to call his art wing chun, this school may call their art pakua but it has very little or no relation to the baguazhang from china, even the small amount of circle walking that was shown didn't seem to have any of the principles of what Bagau should be

where was the stepping method
where was the shen fa
where were any chinese weapons
where were the palm methods

once again i have nothing against people taking what is good form other martial arts but if you take so much that you can't see the orignal art there than you should continue to use the name

   By long xing (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 08:30 pm: Edit Post

sorry that should say:

shouldn't continue to use the same name

   By Fatboy (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 01:36 pm: Edit Post

I love the walking the circle sparring (virtually the same as in the form) James Thornes PaKau associates do in the dowloadable videos on their website.... circle onto my left hook baby !!!

I heard good PaKua Sifu who won championship fighting in Taiwan who said you "never ever" turn your back on your opponent. So why in the PaKua sparring video Mr Thorne do your associates turn their back (just like in the palm change) on their opponents??? You think if you spin fast enougth you can deliver a deadly palm change strike, but your just opening your self up for a shoot, grapple, take down, or devastating kidney shot from the commonplace adversary let alone the masterhand.

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