• Archive through April 17, 2002 April 17 - 09:30 pm [20]

• Archive through April 19, 2002 April 19 - 01:47 pm [20]

• Archive through August 13, 2006 August 13 - 08:11 pm [20]

• Archive through August 20, 2006 August 20 - 01:48 pm [20]

No culture has a lock on the vehicle for self cultivation. It's all about if the individual is a Lemming or if he understands that the training is just a vehicle and it is a way to get to where he or she wants to get.

The real question that I think most people don't ask themselves is, where and what do I want to get out of this?

Yes I agree that almost anything can serve as vehicle for practice. But of course practice is not easy, and it helps a lot to be around people who know what they are doing. In my opinion there is nothing inherently superior about any particular ethnic group or historical tradition, wisdom is a quality of individual people. But at the same time, individual people do pick up habits from their environment. As far as I have dabbled in the MMA scene, it seems that the most outstanding people there are young and intensely focused on maximizing their competitiveness in the sport. So it doesnt seem to be an environment that encourages respect for the kinds of wisdom that accumulate with age or dispassionate reflection.

MMA is nothing new. Many martial artists confine themselves to one art, primarily because those teaching that art discourage any dabbling in other arts. However, through time there have always been martial artists who expanded their horizons beyond one particular art. These martial artists might have Hsing I as their basic art but study other arts as well. Maybe they built their foundation on Shao Lin, moved on to Hsing I and Pa Kua, then added Chi Na, Chinese Wrestling, and perhaps also dabbled Indian wrestling. So given INDIVIDUALS choose to advance their knowledge and capabilities.

In times past martial artists often tested their skill in the arena of life. They engaged in prearranged street fights with other individuals. Schools often fought in the street with the members of other schools. They tested their abilities in war. There were no rules. In group encounters, whether it be street fighting or war, they discovered that they couldn't risk taking their opponent to the ground and attempting to strangle him as it exposed their back to another member of the opposing force.

Obviously this reality cannot be used in training as deadly force would definitely limit your class size. lol So, MMA with the generally imposed limitations, is as close as we can get within reason.

I think it's important to understand that, in the world of the martial arts barring the new weapons used in modern warfare, there is nothing new under the sun. Through thousands of years it has all been thought of before. It galls me, somewhat, when practitioners of MMA assume that they are doing something new; that MMA is something that was invented by modern "masters" just 30 years ago. It irritates me no end when they laugh and question, "What did all of those old Chinese/Japanese/Korean masters ever do to demonstrate their skill? They didn't have Ultimate Fighting." The truth is they often demonstrated their skill in an arena where the loser was the one who died.

The individual is the determining factor in MA training. No two are alike so the training has to be geared to each based on his/her intelligence, drive, and physical capabilities. The individual will determine what to study and whether they want to pursue one art or a number of arts that cover the rainbow of approaches offered by a great many arts. Ultimately the individuals desire,intelligence, and physical ability coupled with the teaching abilities of their instructers will determine how good he/she will become as a martial artist.

Even then there are times to be an individual and there are times when one must make individualism second to the needs of the many. In short sometimes you have to be a team player.

Tim asked whether DOC thought the Chinese Martial arts were superior to the arts of other ethnic groups or the practice of MMA for self cultivation. It's one of those no win questions. I would say that the Chinese martial arts as a whole encompass anything that a practitioner of the MMA might want to study. In other words you could become a practioner of the MMA by studying a half dozen Chinese martial arts. Virtually every other martial art practiced today has its foundations in the Chinese martial arts. There are some exceptions of course like European/American boxing which appear to trace their lineage back to ancient Greece but even at that the same strikes can be found in the Chinese martial arts.

Charlie

Can you name the groundfighting and ground grappling you might find in chinese martial arts?

I agree to a point. You can find aspects of "almost" everything you see in modern MMA in TCMAs. But it's not so much the tactic, but the training method and the skills in which you practice those methods against.

The most essential thing you said is that it is more about the "individual". But even the individual can sometimes fail when using a less efficient training method or tactic.

Today, MMA can training against 100% resistance every week, due to safety gear. Years ago, I doubt if chinese martial artist killed people weekly.

You're assuming that the Chinese do not have wrestling. You would be wrong. Wrestling was also common to India and was carried cross borders into China. Ground fighting is common to virtually every type of wrestling with a few exceptions like sumo. Additionally, ground fighting is not the only component in MMA.

I did not say that the Chinese martial artists killed people weekly but that fights ending in the demise of one of the opponents was not unusual. Street fighting is still common in the world. In many instances you may well be fighting more than one opponent. This is one instance in which a martial artist who relies on ground fighting will almost certainly be defeated. You cannot take one opponent to the ground when you are engaged with more than one fighter. If you do you expose your back to the additional opponent or opponents. There is another instance where a MA who relies on ground fighting might be in trouble. Have you ever been involved in a street fight where your opponent pulled a knife? It isn't wise to simply rush in head long to take him to the ground. You need a strong repertoire of stand up technique available to unbalance him before you attempt to take him down. Unless, of course, you enjoy being slashed or stabbed.

The popularity of UFC has led many people to conclude that ground fighting is the ultimate fighting technique. In fact it has become almost an obsession with many martial artists. What do you do if you can't get your opponent to the ground?

I am not arguing that one shouldn't train in ground fighting, only that it is not more important than the other components in a fighter's arsenal. I started off with a base in ground fighting as I wrestled for four years in high school.

I would also argue that using the same training method for every individual will prove to be a great disservice to some of those individuals. Every individual is different. What works for some will not work for others. You have to tailor the training to the individual. Some individuals are simply not going to be good ground fighters. What do you do for these people? Write them off?

The training method that works for you may not work for me or someone else.

Charlie

Charles,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying and I appreciate the tone in which you are using to say it.

The groundfighting comment was only a response to your implying that TCMA contain everything you would see in MMA. I'm very familiar with Chinese Martial arts and besides kicking from the ground, wasn't aware of any style, including Chinese Wrestling that contained ground fighting. (Ask Tim, he's been there and I read his books)

Talking about a one one on one contest between two people of two different styles is different than talking about a 30 second streetfight or multiple attackers.

I train police officers and I teach self-defense classes for the general public, as well as, being a bouncer for over 15 years. I know the realities of fighting.

I didn't know the discussion was about impromptu streetfighting and multiple attackers. As I said before, in 30seconds aggression and physical conditioning will be more essential than any style.

A good groundfighter doesn't have to fall to the ground with you, they can lock/choke you from a "superior" position, with the ability to see around them escape and evade. It's not just rolling around on the ground. You ever hear of "knee on belly", "knee on chest" or "knee on head"? This is what I teach police officers.

I'm not a groundfighter, but a "fighter". I'm only bias to the truth.

Also, there's no better way to avoid going to the ground than learning what happens on the ground. Most traditional martial artist, except for judo, do not have the kinesthetic awareness on the ground.(We saw that in the first few UFCs).

You don't have to become it, you just have to know it...to evade and escape it.


Your comment about training method confused me. You mean there is no one superior way to train to fight for real? I disagree. It's called "aliveness". I don't care whether it's karate, tai chi, or checkers. You have to do it to do it!

A boxer isn't just going to shadow box and hit a heavy bag and think he will be able to fight. Yes, he can develop attributes, which are very important, but he is missing out on the timing and sensitivity.

Most important...toughness! Can you excute your technique once you've been hit or kick or shocked by a hard throw?

You can have the best technique in the world when there is no threat, no tension, no bruises or bumps on your head. But can you execute that technique when things go wrong...and they always do.

Now, the methods of live sparring may vary, but "aliveness" is always there.

You have to have routine sessions of sparring, streetfighting, "death matches" or whatever to keep your tactics fresh, to make mistakes, to learn from your mistakes, to become familiar with the natural hormonal rush, and to find out exactly who you are as a fighter. Until you do that, you just don't know.

Backarcher,

I agree that you have to have as much reality in training as possible. My comment regarding tailoring the training to fit the student is still true. All students have strengths and weaknesses. You have to try to build some degree of competence in their weak areas while concentrating on their strengths. I too taught police officers but didn't make a career of it. I worked as a civilian instructor for the Evansville, IN police dept from Dec, 1973 thru Aug, 1977. Unfortunately the training wasn't mandatory so few officers attended. In conjunction with that I was involved in training inner city youths through a police dept community relations program. I actually began my martial arts training in Master Hsu Hong Chi's school in Taipei, Taiwan in Jan 1970.

Hsu Lao Shr was very progressive for a Chinese teacher of the martial arts, especially at that time. Basically he taught Hsing I and Pa Kua but he also included Shao Lin, Chi Na, Chinese wrestling, Judo, Sumo, and wrestling as we know it in the USA. Since I had wrestled through high school I always had a huge advantage on those occasions when we wrestled. When we sparred in class we went at about 90 percent power and throws, take downs, and ground fighting was allowed, though whoever was refereeing usually stopped it as soon as one had the upper hand. The preferred technique was to deliver a finishing strike as soon as you had thrown or taken down your opponent. Protective equipment included a groin cup and a pair of speed bag gloves. It was about as close to being real as you could get without taking a chance of serious injury to the students. Even then I saw many broken bones, broken noses, loosened teeth, etc. Students were definitely aware of their mistakes. It was learn or quit. I was also involved in a few street encounters involving students from our school and students from other schools. They were very much real. From what Tim has said the training had changed somewhat by the time he arrived in Hsu Lao Shr's school.

What is taught in China today and what was taught many years ago has changed considerably. This is primarily due to the effort of the government to insure that the "martial" part of the martials arts was virtually eliminated. Having long memories they recalled the uprising of the martial artists during the Boxer Rebellion. It went from wu shu (martial art) to kuo shu (national art). It may have reverted now butI fear that much was lost. The type of wrestling I was referring to was not born in China but in India. As with any martial art it became known in other nations and crossed borders. Some, but certainly not all, Chinese martial artists became familiar with this type of wrestling which did include ground fighting.

I never fought a death match in Hsu Lao Shr's school but on two occasions I did fight "closed door" matches in the school. These were fought when someone issued a real challenge to fight. The doors to the school were closed so no one outside could witness the fight in case one of the fighters was seriously injured or killed. It was understood that no one saw anything and that, in the event of death or serious injury, it was just an accident. If you would like to know more I can relate these stories but for the purpose of this message it isn't necessary.

I have also been engaged in a number of street fights in the US. On three of those occasions I had knives pulled on me. I have also had occasion to face multiple opponents on the street. That is why I brought those up in my last message. I have definitely absorbed full power strikes many times and a broken nose, and broken fingers, and facial cuts during fights and have always managed to perservere and finish the fight. It has been a few years since I engaged in a street fight and I hope there will be no more. I'm 58 years old now and am a little old to be busting heads. I still have the ability but as I have aged I have grown a little wiser and have lost the desire.

I retired from teaching a few years ago. I have a back injury that limits what I can do. Having always been a hands on teacher I can't stand to teach while only being able to participate actively in some of the training. I have to be able to actively participate in all or none. When I was teaching I taught exactly as I was taught so the training was reality based.

Charlie

"...Basically he taught Hsing I and Pa Kua but he also included Shao Lin, Chi Na, Chinese wrestling, Judo, Sumo, and wrestling as we know it in the USA."

That's what I'm talking about. He truly had to "mix martial arts".

I think that is great. Your experience is great. But I doubt if many choose to expand their knowlegde like your instuctor and you do/did...today or yesterday.

Kusti wrestlers from India is very interesting. There's a great article out about a BJJ blackbelt who traveled to India for yoga and trained with the traditional wrestlers. Almost every culture has a form of traditional wrestling. Even the Native Americans in the US.

Again, whether it's at their doorstep or not they have to choose to integrate such tactics into their style. Your instructor probably because of real experiences realized this.

Even the Gracie JJ integrated American wrestling. They realized that not all traditional judo throws were not as efficient without the cloth. Even more so now. American freestyle wrestling is enhancing modern BJJ.

But they would not of realized this without really fighting...outside the walls of their school.

Whether its a traditional chinese art or boxing or kickboxing or karate, nothing has it all...efficiently.

Also, you are right. Any good coach works from his athletes abilities or weakness, rather than to fit them in the mold of a style.

Do some yoga for your back. It's not to late.

This has turned into one of the most informative threads in a long time.

Backarcher,

"There's a great article out about a BJJ blackbelt who traveled to India for yoga and trained with the traditional wrestlers."

I'd love to read this. Do you have a link?

It's in Black Belt Magazine. September issue. I usually don't read the mag, but flipping through it I quickly recognized the Gushti Indian wrestlers. And I love any form of wrestling. It's an article called "The Cradle of Wrestling", page 84. the BJJ Blackbelt was Phil Migliarese, a Relson Gracie Blackbelt.

You might also be interested in this article by a BJJ black belt that practiced Vajramushti (an all in style of Indian martial arts that includes striking and wrestling while wearing a knuckle duster on the right hand).

http://www.bjj.com.au/john_article_web_7.html

Tim,

Great! What a find! The Aussie's have very good and very openminded approach to BJJ. That was a great article.